Hard to start Daytona

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Steve Meltzer
Posts: 928
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:31 am
Location: with Barney the Beagle boy and Enzo 8995

Hard to start Daytona

Post by Steve Meltzer »

Actually, my header is slightly inaccurate. My Daytona is difficult to start if it's been sitting for a week or more. Under these circumstances, the car cranks and cranks and cranks and after about 50 (no exaggeration) stabs of the accelerator pedal, it will crank, fire up and then runs great thereafter.
Under these conditions, you can sense it's about to fire up and then, with enough action from the accelerator pedal, it does! If the car has only been sitting 24 to 48 hours, a few pumps of the throttle, and it fires right up and again, runs great, Idles great, et cetera. This sounds like a fuel delivery problem to me, with the bowls not filling adequately. I've done nothing yet to investigate this and would appreciate any thoughts from y'all about what I should look for. Thanks Steve

ADD: My first step, I would think, would be to pull the air cleaner and watch the fuel delivery to the venturis from the accelerator pumps. I just don't see this as an electrical problem, given how it runs once it starts. Thanks again Steve
steve
meltzer, "“With a Ferrari, whatever it is, it’s a $1000. If that’s what it is.”"
'66 330 GTC, '72 Daytona-red, did they make any other colors?
Jimmyr
Posts: 426
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:20 pm
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Re: Hard to start Daytona

Post by Jimmyr »

You may be on to something by looking if the accelerator pump squirt in each choke. The pump diapharms go bad from the rotten fuel. They are easily changed and make a big difference when replace with the newer more resistant ones.
250gtgt
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:33 am

Re: Hard to start Daytona

Post by 250gtgt »

HI Steve,

looks that timing and carbs are spot on,

I would advice a high speed torque starter for around 400 usd. that replaced the heavy Mag.Marelli MR 21, an put the MM starter In storage.

I use them since 12 years with out problems they have longlife time guarantee !

And I got a replacement for one of the cars last year that did his job for over 10 years .

without questions.

best

C.
afwrench
Posts: 410
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:13 am
Location: upstate new york

Re: Hard to start Daytona

Post by afwrench »

Hi Steve, prior to what you would anticipate to be a hard start give a short spray of starter fluid. If it fires away you should be confident that it is the fuel/carb culprit. Good luck.Mike
72,365gtc4,14681,2007 599 GTB
Steve Meltzer
Posts: 928
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:31 am
Location: with Barney the Beagle boy and Enzo 8995

Re: Hard to start Daytona

Post by Steve Meltzer »

Thanks for the advice guys. I will post the list; suspect that a spray of starter aerosol will cause the car to fire up immediately. we will find out, but that would nail it to the fuel and the accelerator pumps, I think. steve
steve
meltzer, "“With a Ferrari, whatever it is, it’s a $1000. If that’s what it is.”"
'66 330 GTC, '72 Daytona-red, did they make any other colors?
Steve Meltzer
Posts: 928
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:31 am
Location: with Barney the Beagle boy and Enzo 8995

Re: Hard to start Daytona

Post by Steve Meltzer »

If I remember correctly, the actual accelerator pump diaphragms come in 2 styles. One has a cardboard sort of rigid backing, the other a floppy rubber one. Are either one of these preferable to the other or doesn't matter? It's been a while since I've had the diaphragms out but that's what I seem to remember. Thanks again and I should have some information in a few days. Steve
steve
meltzer, "“With a Ferrari, whatever it is, it’s a $1000. If that’s what it is.”"
'66 330 GTC, '72 Daytona-red, did they make any other colors?
Jimmyr
Posts: 426
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:20 pm
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Re: Hard to start Daytona

Post by Jimmyr »

Steve,

I do not know about the various styles on the these, but the orange floppy ones I get from GT Parts in Phoenix are resistant to todays fuels. When removing the old original factory ones I have noted they are hard as a rock and not pumping fuel as they should.
Steve Meltzer
Posts: 928
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:31 am
Location: with Barney the Beagle boy and Enzo 8995

Re: Hard to start Daytona

Post by Steve Meltzer »

I was able to get out there today, and, with the fuel pump on, and a few pumps of the accelerator, it gave very little fuel and then only dribbles. (Kinda like an old man with prostate problems!) New diaphragms ordered from GT Car Parts this afternoon, and I will post the list when they have been installed. Thanks again Steve

ADD: the car has been sitting about four days and fired right up even with a little bit of fuel that came from the Jets.
steve
meltzer, "“With a Ferrari, whatever it is, it’s a $1000. If that’s what it is.”"
'66 330 GTC, '72 Daytona-red, did they make any other colors?
Steve Meltzer
Posts: 928
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:31 am
Location: with Barney the Beagle boy and Enzo 8995

Re: Hard to start Daytona

Post by Steve Meltzer »

Well, it's a good thing I was a better gynecologist than mechanic. I replaced the pump diaphragms (apparently these diaphragms are different than the ones I prescribed in practice!) to no avail. Not a single drop of fuel better! So, I tested the fuel flow to the rail from the e-pump, and it was excellent. At that point, I figured there must be some sort of obstruction in the accelerator pump circuit. The car seemed to run excellent, but when you have 12 cylinders, is very hard tell subtleties unless you're a pro, which I am not.

With the fuel rail disconnected, I removed the tops of all six carburetors, and ran an insulin syringe needle (donated by my diabetic cat, Colombo) through the nozzle and demand valve orifices. Next, I blew compressed air through the nozzles, demand valves, needle and seats and anything else that would hold still long enough for the treatment. Then, I soaked all the parts in parts cleaner and finally, one last good spray of carburetor cleaner into all the orifices, and put it all back together.

Viola! Once I fixed the leaking banjo bolt interfaces (HINT: spend the extra $.50 and put it in all new fiber washers between the fuel rail and the carburetors!), I could see that all of the carburetors were getting a great pump shot. Problem solved.

Since the car had been sitting for nearly six months, I suspect that the fuel became varnish and clogged up the system. It's also possible that the fuel was bad to begin with. I have always added Marvel Mystery oil to each tank, believing that if it said "mystery", it would be beneficial. Apparently not beneficial enough! I have heard others recommend "Carb Defender" and "Seafoam", any other thoughts in terms of prevention going down the road? Thanks for letting me bend your ear.


Steve
steve
meltzer, "“With a Ferrari, whatever it is, it’s a $1000. If that’s what it is.”"
'66 330 GTC, '72 Daytona-red, did they make any other colors?
Fasthound330
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:40 pm

Re: Hard to start Daytona

Post by Fasthound330 »

Steve -

Great that your were able to solve the problem. You might want to consider using race fuel at least once a month or so to help reduce ethanol in your fuel systems. I run Sunoco 110 leaded in my 330 GTC and Jag e-type 3.8. No ethanol, no oxygenation, no lead….just like the fuel you would have been using back in the mid-60’s and early 70’s. Remember that lovely Sunoco 260 back in the day? And the Sunoco leaded 110 smells amazing and evaporates so cleanly, there is zero residue. And it’s safe to store for two years with no scum buildup or varnish. I’ve got a gas station about 30 minutes from me that has it at the pump for $10/gal. If I buy it in the 5 gallon pails, it’s more like $14/gal. And then I have to recycle the cans as hazardous waste.

I’ve let the Jag sit for more than six months before without any issues. Starts right up again after a long nap.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Cheers,
Kevin
1967 330 GTC s/n 9911
Steve Meltzer
Posts: 928
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:31 am
Location: with Barney the Beagle boy and Enzo 8995

Re: Hard to start Daytona

Post by Steve Meltzer »

Hi Kevin, it won't be easy for me to get the fuel you've recommended, but I can probably get AVgas easier. I believe it's 110 octane and would appreciate your input and anyone else who is knowledgeable about that sort of gas. It is leaded and I was thinking that I would dilute it with pump gas ,93 octane. Do the octane boosters they sell work? I believe it is illegal to sell leaded gasoline here in Harris County. So, one must drive to another county in all of the Houston traffic, to buy unleaded gas which I believe it is about 95 octane. I'm not sure. Any other thoughts?
And what of https://www.amazon.com/Klotz-100-Octane ... 760&sr=8-1
or: https://www.amazon.com/Klotz-110-Octane ... 6465&psc=1

thanx s
steve
meltzer, "“With a Ferrari, whatever it is, it’s a $1000. If that’s what it is.”"
'66 330 GTC, '72 Daytona-red, did they make any other colors?
Fasthound330
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:40 pm

Re: Hard to start Daytona

Post by Fasthound330 »

Wow..now THAT is some expensive fuel! Yikes!

I think that leaded vs unleaded isn’t as big a deal as getting a fuel without ethanol. Most of our cars at this point have updated fuel pump seals and diaphragms and carb seals, gaskets, and diaphragms that will work with unleaded fuel and ethanol, but it’s the ethanol that will cause problems with residue, etc. even after a short period of time. So try to find a local race fuel that is unleaded and ethanol-free. And then definitely feel free to mix it with 93 unleaded pump gas to reduce the overall percentage of ethanol. And for storage longer than a month, I’d try to fill the car with nothing but ethanol-free fuel and run it for a bit to try to get that ethanol-free gas into the float chambers and all the gas lines, etc.

Others may have different views on this topic? For me, I just hate having any ethanol in the fuel system if I can avoid it. Besides, I freaking LOVE the smell of 110 leaded fuel. Sunoco used to call it Cam2 race gas from days of old.

I can tell you factually that all the cars in Ralph Lauren’s collection are filled with “Cam2 race gas” so as to avoid ethanol sitting in the tanks. That way they never worry about storage issues. This is straight from the manager/curator of Ralph's car collection, Mark Reinwald. That’s good enough for me!
1967 330 GTC s/n 9911
DWR46
Posts: 595
Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:23 pm

Re: Hard to start Daytona

Post by DWR46 »

Steve: Good to see you back on the forum and hope your health is good.

Opinions are like armpits, everybody's got them. So here are a few observations:

1. We have had ethanol (E10) fuels in everything from Duesenbergs to the newest cars for over 25 years now with ZERO problems. The cars always start fine after setting all winter. They are stored in climate controlled buildings

2. About 10 years ago, I started using the No-Rosion fuel stabilizing product only in the fall for the last few drives before winter. I just thought I would try it and see if it made any difference. The cars still start perfectly in the spring. However, I do believe the product does stabilize the alcohol in the fuel.

3. I am not a fan of octane boosters. Generally, Ferraris do not need them, their compression ratios are low enough that any pump gas above 89 octane is fine. If I was to use an octane booster, it would be the No-Rosion product. I can go on about No-Rosion at length, but that is another story, except to say I am a great believer in all their products, especially for cooling systems.

4. In the last year or so, a local gas station has begun selling NON ETHANOL unleaded premium fuel. It is 91 octane, as Phillips will not supply him with 93 non-ethanol fuel. I have started switching everything over to this gas. In all honesty, I have found NO difference in how the cars start and run with the non-ethanol fuel. I expect to see NO difference in how they start in the spring (always start perfectly with ethanol). My friend who owns the station says customers tell him "small engines" start much easier with this fuel. So far, the 2 point lower octane rating has not been a factor, even with American high compression engines from the 1960's. The non-ethanol gas will make the engines run about 3% richer than the ethanol due to the higher energy content of "regular" gas vs.10% ethanol. This also results in slightly better gas mileage with non-ethanol gas. Generally, vintage Ferraris are factory jetted slightly rich (on the dyno, we always have to lean the jetting from factory specs for best power), so ethanol rarely causes any jetting problems in the cars.

5. I used to use a percentage of racing gas, when you could still easily get LEADED race gas, but, like lots of other "wives tales" we have NEVER seen any street engines damaged by using unleaded fuels. My warning about race gas and avgas also, is that many of these products are not blended to last very long in storage. I know some now claim to have long shelf life, but that is due to new blends now being offered to try to expand their market to collector car owners. While there are fans of race and avgas, they need to know these products are not generally blended to the needs of "street" cars, especially avgas. Be aware avgas octane ratings are NOT the same as "automotive" gas. 110 octane avgas is not the same as 110 octane automotive gas. They are different tests and the numbers are not comparable. I can go into detail on this subject, but I don't want to write a "novel" here.

Just my observations from over the years.
Fasthound330
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:40 pm

Re: Hard to start Daytona

Post by Fasthound330 »

Yep…we’ve all got opinions…and that’s a good thing.

Sunoco advertises two year shelf life on the 110 leaded. In my opinion, there is enough info out there related to the negatives associated with ethanol for long term storage that I simply won’t take the risk. Obviously, YMMV.
1967 330 GTC s/n 9911
Steve Meltzer
Posts: 928
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:31 am
Location: with Barney the Beagle boy and Enzo 8995

Re: Hard to start Daytona

Post by Steve Meltzer »

Dyke and Kevin, thanks again for sharing your opinions, observations and advice. Much appreciated and much to think about. Happy Thanksgiving to all Steve
steve
meltzer, "“With a Ferrari, whatever it is, it’s a $1000. If that’s what it is.”"
'66 330 GTC, '72 Daytona-red, did they make any other colors?
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