not for the squeamish

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Yale
Posts: 825
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2002 4:56 pm
Location: New York City

not for the squeamish

Post by Yale »

You know all those stories about how much work does it take to keep one of these cars on the road? Well, the following is a detail of the first two years of my ownership. I must warn you this is not suitable for family members.

Since my wife doesn't read Tom's site and prompted by reading the GTE newsletter where an owner noted that his car ran fine over to the FCA Indianpolis event EXCEPT that the starter motor stopped working as did the overdrive. Added to the fact that though I just got my car back from the shop I am still having brake problems and am unhappy with the suspension, (and since the brakes and suspension were what was just worked on am unhappy in general). I thought I would share with the brethren my assorted alms to the gods of all things black hole-ish.

You can read my travails of buying this car at other locations on this site. I will let the repair bills give you the details. (Please read the following realizing that I bought "a restored car."):

THE FIRST TWO YEARS

Jan 2001 Wide World of Cars - Customer states when starting car oil filter blows off. Oil filter check valve sticking. Remove and clean and replace oil filters $313.

March 2001 Francois Sicard - Remove gasoline tubing, air filter, alternator belt, clean carbs, check brakes, change fluids, redo gas tubing, remove console and seats, center tunnel, gear box cover, check reverse gear, and fork, remove shift linkage casting and check bushing, remove hood, remove radiator, install new alternator belt, install battery cut off switch, bring radiator to Portchester Radiator, remove door panel, repair door handle, reassemble door panel, disassemble shift linkage and remove steel bushing and install new one, reassemble and check reverse gear, reassemble windshield switch and check for short, remove passenger seat track and repair, remove rear seats and install safety belts, install hood, install front seatbelts, install rear seats, fabricate license plate holder, bring car to CDM to repair windshield wiper, remove oil pan and change oil pressure valve, check electric fan function, remove thermostat, test car for oil pressure problem. $5677.62 (includes gas tubing $229, alt belt,$19.75, battery switch $41.75, wire $12, shift linkage bushing $7.35, Portchester Radiator $50, electric windshield wiper foot control $160, CDM Electric $199.50, thermo contact 65.35).

April 2001 Francois Sicard - Remove hood radiator, water tubing, electric wires, exhaust tubing, seats and interior, transmission shaft, gear box, and engine from chassis. Disassemble engine completely, clean parts. $3994.35

May 2001 Francois Sicard - Install head on block, install shaft for bluing, adjust bearings, realign block with shaft, clean bearings, block and parts, timing chain, pistons, crank, rocker arm, etc. Remove, valves, clean head surface. $4475. (includes 1 set intake valves $1020, 1 set exhaust valves $1020).

Jun 2001 Francois Sicard - Install bearings, crank shaft, pistons, con rod bearings, remove valve guides and install new ones, hone valve guides, machine seats, lap valves, clean valves and head, install valves, and seals, check height and pressure on springs, install springs, rocker arms, cam. Adjust valves install head on block, install timing chain, adjust timing, install distributor, reassemble engine. $5644.50

July 2001 Francois Sicard - Install engine, gearbox, reassemble interior, adjust front springs, change fan motor. $2109. (includes parts seat track $100, Daytona motor fan $520. Radiator hose 155.)

Oct 2001 Francois Sicard - Remove front grill, drain radiator, remove electric fan, remove hood, water hoses and radiator, fabricate bracket to support new electric fan, weld bracket, paint and install fan, install radiator, remove tail pipe hanger and weld tip, remove rr wheel and fix oil leak, adjust clutch and hand brake, reinstall hood. $1749.

December 2001 Classic Coach - Change oil and filter. Replace plug wires Adjust carbs. $686.25

March 2002 Francois Sicard - Complete customers list. Travel back and forth to CDM for electric problem. Remove valve covers, check and adjust valve clearance, retorque heads, install valve covers, remove mech fuel pump and rebuild and install, check timing and carbs, remove dist cap and check wiring and firing order, repair door switch, remove cover and clutch and brake pedal, change pedal bellow and reassemble, install hand brake pad and adjust cable, change tie rod. Travel to Danbury to remove tire, stall 2 new spokes, mount and balance tire, install wheels, inspection, remove center consol and repair cig lighter, under coat fender wells. $3208.47 (includes parts, tie rod $157.50, fuel pump kit $152.25, hand brake pads $35, Pedal bellow $110, CDM $70, inspection $20).

Aug 2002 Francois Sicard - Change oil and check for leak, adjust clutch pedal, take car to Continental Auto Body to remove wheels and put on new ones. $262.46

Feb 2002 - Francois Sicard - Remove tail pipes, shocks calipers, discs, diff support cables, hand brake cables, brake tubing, transmission shaft, remove differential and rear trunk, disassemble differential and limiter split, clean parts, install new diff locks, change, bearings, check ring and pinion play, adjust and reassemble diff, install discs, remove springs from shocks and check pressure, install springs and shocks, bleed brake system, remove radio, install rear light chrome. $4239.46 (includes parts 2 Timken bearings $60.76, 10 Diff locks, $950, pinion bearing, $150, weld rear light chrome $20).

Nov 2002 Francois Sicard - Remove exhaust shield to repair starter wire adjust clutch pedal. $138.

Nov 2002 Timevalve - Install and paint new exhaust system $3360.20 (parts $2850).
Ex - 1964 330GT #6097
1963 Abarth Monomille
1970 Porsche 911S
1974 BMW 2002turbo
Alberto
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 12:21 am
Location: San Diego

Post by Alberto »

I hate to say that I find comfort in other's misery, but I feel better about how much money I have put into my car in the 1.5 years I've owned it. Looks like you rebuilt the engine. Athough my engine was and is in good shape, (just had to have a tune up, etc.), I did have to rebuild the brake master, clutch master and slave, all four calipers, radiator recore, etc. I've put in about 1/3 of what you have (or perhaps I am denial, i have not added up the receipts lately).

Here in the republic of California, we pay about $90/hr shop rate. What are you paying in CT?

All I can say for moral support this: I drove my car about 300 miles last weekend. The only thought I had as I was driving the car was: " it does not get any better than this". That drive made all of the pain and $$ worth it. Hopefully you have experienced this side of the coin or shortly will.

All the best,
Alberto
Rudy van Daalen Wetters
Posts: 1206
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:53 pm

Post by Rudy van Daalen Wetters »

Yale,

Misery loves company. Last Friday, I picked up my GTE and paid the final amount of the bill for the engine rebuild.....$23,935.43.

Got in car, drove home 39 miles, parked car. Happy as kid on Christmas. Next morning, looked under car and found coolant leaking everywere. Crawled under car and saw coolant leaking from driver side head. Also noticed brake fluid leak, and differential fluid leak.

Not so happy anymore.

As noted, misery loves company...

There are easier ways to suffer.

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705
Stephanm
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Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 9:27 pm
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Post by Stephanm »

Just think of all the great people you have met by being in this Ferrari world, and when you divide it up each friend you made cost $13,553.

I am always shocked at how repair shops never seem to test drive cars. At my shop we always drive a car 3-400 miles after a engine overhhaul, less ofor other services to make sure no leaks or problems. I drive the cars home to see how they start cold, and try to imagine that these cars can be driven every day with no dramas. We have many customers who do drive there cars to work every chance they get. ALWAYS insist that your shop drive the cars for many miles after work and prepare yourself to wait another 2 months to make sure all the little bits and bobs are sorted.

Many people spend $15,000 to paint a car and claim that it is restored, big difference between $150,000 full restoration and a paint job.
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Yale
Posts: 825
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2002 4:56 pm
Location: New York City

Post by Yale »

Looking over the first two years it doesn't look so bad given that I needed an engine rebuild. And all of the shops do in fact drive the cars before I get them back. However Stephan, don't know if you have experienced the only broken out of site of the mechanic situation.

This notation isn't about hourly rate or efficacy of repairs. And I have driven the car about 12,000 miles and do love the car, (damn, I'd have too). I thought I should add some notation to explain some of the service vists.

Jan 2001 New to me car delivered at NJ port. Oil filter blew on start up. Car flat bedded to Wide World Of Cars.

March 2001 Pick up car from Wide World of Cars with Tom Yang. Radiator blows at stop for gas. Car flat bedded to Francois Sicard.

April 2001 Francois mentions that oil pressure is low and engine may not enjoy too much use without... Car already at Francois Sicard.

October 2001 Car overheats in any kind of traffic. Living in New York City this is somewhat of a problem. Car flat bedded out of New York traffic and driven to Francois Sicard who says to me, "Who told you, you could own this car in New York City?"

December 2001 taking Tom Yang to Classic Coach and getting an oil change. Plug wires remove themselves from plugs while at Classic Coach.

March 2002 Car running poorly. Driven to Francois Sicard car is rewired. Poor steering helped by replacing tie rods and broken wheel spokes

Aug 2002 Policeman in an unmarked car on the West Side Highway mentions something wrong with front wheels. 90% of wheel spokes broken. Flat bedded to Francois Sicard.

Feb 2002 Loud noise from limited slip diff in turns turns out to be worn limited slip. Driven to Francois Sicard.

Nov 2002 Starter stops working while visiting friends in Hastings. Husband and wife push car down hill to start. Drive back to garage in NYC. Next week garage personal push start car. On drive to Francois Sicard car stalls out (nice one Yale) and two female policewomen on West Side Highway push start car. (One says to me, "This is a nice looking car, shouldn't you just be driving it in parades?") Drive to Francois Sicard.

Nov 2002 Extremely loud rusty exhaust replaced.

Yale
Ex - 1964 330GT #6097
1963 Abarth Monomille
1970 Porsche 911S
1974 BMW 2002turbo
Rudy van Daalen Wetters
Posts: 1206
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:53 pm

Post by Rudy van Daalen Wetters »

After reading Yale's post, I am not feeling so bad anymore.....can't wait to read about the next installment (2003 to present).

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705
jsa330
Posts: 512
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:41 am
Location: Dallas, Texas

Post by jsa330 »

I won't go into as excruciating detail as Yale, but I paid $32K for my 330 on 11-30-02. With this latest round of work...new-used Borranis, alternator rebuild, lots of odds and ends, all labor by me, my hard repair and reconditioning costs are in the high twenties, and will be nudging $30K by the time I get the instruments rebuilt--budgeted for next year. I'm not counting the literally hundreds of hours I've spent in personal labor...I'm sure I've saved at least $5K in direct $85 to $95/hr. shop labor charges.

Rudy, I know how you feel. I had the front end of my engine rebuilt...about $4k...and had to take it back several times to get things corrected..luckily a very conscientious shop here in Dallas was doing the work and it was no longterm prob, just a little frustrating for both of us to go back and forth until it was all sorted out.

It's interesting...in this latest disassembly in my garage I'm getting several minor leak points identified and repaired...the lesson is, shops are in business to make money and unless you've got a permanently open checkbook, they're going to miss little stuff, no matter how good they are.
Current: 1983 308 GTS
R.I.P: 330 2+2 s/n 5409
Rudy van Daalen Wetters
Posts: 1206
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:53 pm

Post by Rudy van Daalen Wetters »

Bluecat,

Black Horse Motors stands behind their work and have assured me that they will do whatever the car needs to rectify the problem. My frustration is that I have to be in charge of quality control.

How can a GTE cause so much joy and frustration at the same time?

Interestingly, the message to my wife and GTE seem to share a common theme. "You are high maintenance, but I am crazy in love with you!"

Glad she doesn't read this web site.

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705
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tyang
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Post by tyang »

How can a GTE cause so much joy and frustration at the same time?
I don't believe the heights of enjoyment in Ferrari ownership can be attained without some pretty low lows. The struggles I had with my restoration has really made the (partially) finished car more rewarding. Either that, or we're just making excuses for the hemmoraging of our cash flow!

Tom
'63 330 America #5053
Rudy van Daalen Wetters
Posts: 1206
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:53 pm

Post by Rudy van Daalen Wetters »

Tom,

I believe you may have touched on something Winston Churchill once stated about one not being able to appreciate the heights of ecstasy without enduring the depths of despairity.

You should be feeling quite well about now.

Regards,

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705
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tyang
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Post by tyang »

Hi Rudy,

How can it be said better than Churchill.

The "ecstasy" was during the drive to Michael's house last Sunday. It was early in the morning, and traffic was light, so the car was allowed to go as fast as she wanted. This does not mean I was going triple digit speeds, but rather, I was able to hit my apexes on some of the back roads.

The "despairity" was in my return from the party when I realized the transmission will have to come out to fix the worsening bearing whine. WHen the transmission comes out, it means some of the interior has to come out!

Tom
'63 330 America #5053
Rudy van Daalen Wetters
Posts: 1206
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:53 pm

Post by Rudy van Daalen Wetters »

Hi Tom,

It almost appears that the laws of probability are acting against us all.

Not fair!

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705
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Yale
Posts: 825
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2002 4:56 pm
Location: New York City

Post by Yale »

Well, luckily after the first two years things calmed down though there were a smattering of re-occurring problems. For one, a knock that got really loud from the rear suspension, brakes that at times seemed to remain on, continued jittering from what I thought was the rear diff (only on left hand turns), and a radiator that would spit on the windshield upon first driving the car. Nonetheless I did take the kid and his friend to camp in Maine this year and had a couple of nice and long jaunts in Central Pa. and I no longer recognize the AAA tow truck drivers like I used to. By the way, as I said before none of this is about the people who have worked on the car. It really is just about buying a car, driving it a lot and hence, fixing it - a lot.

Feb 2003 Driving with a friend to a mini golf course, car has flat tire. Ever have a flat tire with a tube tire? Car flat bedded to Dominic's (which was somewhat near by). They also replaced parking brake cable with one they had in stock, painted steering shaft (which had gotten brake fluid on it from leaking brake fluid canister) made new gasket for leaking brake fluid canister, painted wheel, new tire. $1700.

June 03 Car driven to Dominic's for oil change and check of rubbing being felt in steering wheel. Turns out to be destroyed front bearings. Replace discovered worn bearings. $1140.

Sep 2004 Car driven to Francois Sicard. Demise of mechanical fuel pump and continued knock from rear suspension along with oil change. Spray springs with anti lock and grease springs. Change oil and filters, remove mechanical fuel pump, install pump axle, install pump, install engine vent tubes, fabricate bracket. $527

June 2005 Radiator spewing on windshield prompts visit to Bryan Vignale. Oil change, suspension lubed, rebuilt radiator (for the third time as it was rebuilt and recored before I bought the car), bleed brakes, $670.25.

Oct 2005 On drive to drop off son at camp noticed brakes grabbing wheel to the extent that I smelled brakes in car when stopped and car would not roll on hill. Suspension noise also gets louder and still get sound from limited slip. Drive car to Vignale with new purchased rear bushings. Front brake calipers pitted, resleeved at Karps Power Brake Service @ $320. New rear bushings installed, brakes reassembled, rear differential removed and checked, nothing wrong with it. New rear U joint bought from Dennis McAnn @ $595. $3066, not including rear U joint which I bought.

Oct 2005 No more noise from suspension but suspension feels loose. Noise from limited slip continues, mechanic posits noise is really from drive shaft. Rear brakes grab so that I smell them when stopped and will not roll on hill. Post anguished note to Tom Yang's board.

Yale
Ex - 1964 330GT #6097
1963 Abarth Monomille
1970 Porsche 911S
1974 BMW 2002turbo
Rudy van Daalen Wetters
Posts: 1206
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:53 pm

Post by Rudy van Daalen Wetters »

Yale,

"When you are going through hell, keep going". (Another Churchill quote)
You deserve combat pay.

I assume your car has booster (proportioning) valve at the front of the car? Perhaps it is stuck and not releasing the pressure to the rear brakes?
Mine, by the way, is leaking and the mechanic thought it would dry up by itself. (I love to see any brake fluid leak mend itself). I had a proportioning valve lock up the rears on my Alfa Romeo on the freeway once and it was quite the eye opener!

Does anyone know if rebuild kits are available on these units?

Yes, you really have to love that car.

Regards,

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705
PETER GABRIEL
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2002 8:45 pm
Location: QUEENS N.Y.

Post by PETER GABRIEL »

I've owned my car since the early 60s, and I don't think I spent more than $6/7 k on it, and that includes an engine rebuild, and a down to metal repaint, $500.00], and a dif rebuild, several brake rebuilds, tranny tear down, brake booster twice, radiator, generator, starter, wheel bearings, tie rods, etc.,etc.,etc.

Did all the work myself, except the machine shop work and balancing, which was done by the great, and possibly the best mechanic/machinist on the east coast, Ernie Cassis, who was the top mechanic for Bob Grossman, when he was racing.

Caveat: parts cost peanuts at the time.

Rebuild was a result of smoking, [ looked like a B52 on take off ], no valve guide seals. Pulled the heads for machining for installation of the Perfect Circle seals. Then the OCD kicked in, maybe I should check the rings while the head is off. All you have to do is drop the pan, remove the con rod nuts, and pull the pistons. Yeah right? Engine was pulled and completely stripped. Bearings were like new, replaced everything. Against Earnies' advice of using Loctite on the con rod bolts, I painstakingly replaced all the cotter pins that went through the castellated nuts and con rod bolts. The nuts have a prescribed torque, some did not line up at torque, so I had to shave them. I was determined to bring the engine to factory specs. Now thats original, Lads. How many rebuilt engines out there with cotter pins?

Drool Time: Going back even further, 1967, Ferrari dealer Crepaldi in Milan quoted me the following for parts:

12 pistons complete $156.78
Bearings mains/cons 92.42
valves ex. ea. 4.28
valves in ea. 4.04 Dontcha love that, only .20 cents difference.
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