a new project begins

[kare]

I have color code MM16229 for 2043GT taken from GTE-register. I don't know how the color is described the Pininfarina records, but in 6 other cases it was described as "blu genziana". I uploeaded a few pictures of 0719SA from Turin Motor Show 1957 to illustrate what MM16229 can look like in b/w photo and will keep them there for a while.

http://koti.welho.com/kpietil4/0719t57a.jpg
http://koti.welho.com/kpietil4/0719t57b.jpg
http://koti.welho.com/kpietil4/0719t57c.jpg

In my opinion the color looks very similar to Paris show car. Judging by how 0719SA looks today (I assume they tried to get the color right?) I would not call this color very pale, medium at best.

All the photos I know only show one car, this is why I believe they only showed one in Paris. I don't know why claims of two cars were made in the first place; maybe they first destined 2169GT for Paris and then swapped it for 2043GT for a reason or another (factory records - which I haven't seen - could then have remarks of Paris on both cars...?). Maybe someone mistook the PF Cabriolet for another GT/E (it had a Hardtop!) or maybe someone was confused, because the GT/E was moved during the show. The GT/E was first (?) shown beside the California Spider but later (?) moved to show the side view to the public. The main problem in my opinion is that it would have made no sense to send another car - Enzo's personal car at that! - to Paris and then back to factory. Factory did not borrow cars to local distributors for the shows, they had to take delivery of the cars.

Tom's diaries are worth gold when trying to identify unknown parts. My car is also apart at the moment (just removed the valve covers for check up today) so I too have many parts around and might regonize an eventual mystery part you can't figure out yourself!

Best wishes, Kare

[T308]

[

Here ya go. Paris, 1960.

T308

[T308]

I don't think 2169GT was displayed in Paris, especially as it seems to have been used for some publicity photos AND destined to Enzo Ferrari.

It is a super-interesting car though and it would be very very interesting to know the internal engine, gearbox and rear end numbers for such an early car!!! I hope these can be collected and reported when the restoration is started!

Best wishes, Kare

Engine 522F, gearbox 5E.

T308

[zac]

the seat in that picture looks awful tan to me(2169) rather than red(2043)

I will post the trans and rear end numbers tomorrow, the engine is allready out and off to Jens so I will post the internal number next time I see the motor.

Zac

[Rudy van Daalen Wetters]

Nice photo, John. Wonder what kind of tires the car has. Looks like raised white lettering on them.

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

[Rudy van Daalen Wetters]

Maybe I am seeing things, but different looking tires and wheel weight position on left front tire than the color publicity photo.

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

[zac]

:lol: I am sure Ferrari, an automotive manufacturer launching their most important venture yet that was going to pay for their racing ventures for the 60's would not splurge for a fresh set of Borranis and new tires for the most important car show in the world at the time :lol:

[kare]

One interesting sideline is the adventures of register plate "MO 54083". I think this plate was first issued for 1287GT - the first 250 GT/E prototype - in 1959. It then appeared on a white GT/E and can be seen in backgound of some testing pictures of 246 F1 Dino of 1959/60. This must have been 1903GT in summer of 1960. Next time this plate was seen on a GT/E when they were testing 156 F1 "Sharknose" early in 1961. The GT/E is now darker, probably rosso corsa. I would think this is 1903/GT, now repainted. The register plate surfaced one more time; now on a 3rd series car. This car is a mystery to me.

Rotating plates from car to car was not legally possible but it seems that Ferrari took certain liberties when it comes to his personal drivers. 3097SA/4715SA is another example of this.

It would be very interesting to sort out early lives of 1287GT, 1903GT, 2169GT which all have certain pointers towards Enzo Ferrari. My first guess would be that 1903GT and/or 2169GT served as Enzos drivers while 1287GT was being converted into a 4-litre GT/E-Superamerica hybrid. 1903GT may have lost its life in this process but it may be very very difficult to find out where exactly each car was at each time and what were the exact roles they played in this mess.

Best wishes, Kare

[T308]

Maybe I am seeing things, but different looking tires and wheel weight position on left front tire than the color publicity photo.

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

The tyres are Dunlops. Likely they were changed for the show as Dunlop was the official supplier of the GP team that year. The car as shown in photos on the rotating table at Pinifarina has tyres that look to be Pirellis (as do the outside phots of the car next to the stone wall). As Zac indicates, this change was likely a nod to the money provided by Dunlop for racing support.

T308

[Rudy van Daalen Wetters]

Zac,

How many miles would you predict would have been on the car between photos? Both cars in the photos appear very, very "fresh". New tires and wheels at every photo opportunity doesn't make sense. I would think that the car also would have spent most of its early debut life being trailered from place to place as well and not driven.

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

[Rudy van Daalen Wetters]

John, Zac

I see your point on the tires now as a good and rational explanation for the change.
Cash flow will put your name where you want it.

Thanks,

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

[T308]

It would be very interesting to sort out early lives of 1287GT, 1903GT, 2169GT which all have certain pointers towards Enzo Ferrari. My first guess would be that 1903GT and/or 2169GT served as Enzos drivers while 1287GT was being converted into a 4-litre GT/E-Superamerica hybrid. 1903GT may have lost its life in this process but it may be very very difficult to find out where exactly each car was at each time and what were the exact roles they played in this mess.

Best wishes, Kare

They do have complex early lives don't they?

1903 is very interesting as it was the brochure car. The engine's still around (in an SWB) but I've never been able to figure out if the entire car ever made it to the US. I do have two leads on the previous owner of the engine (Robin Adrian), maybe I'll try and dig them up now that I think about it.

All we know for sure is the first 1287 is lost, 1895 and 1903 are without their engines, and 2031, 2043 and 2169 are still complete (though none of them has been restored). It'll be great to have 2169 back in great shape. Can't wait to see it again!

T308

[Scott Oshry]

I believe that Zac is correct and both GTE’s were at the show. This being one of the most important launches for Ferrari and what would be considered their first production cars ever it would make since that they would bring more than one car. With one car on the stand they may have displayed another somewhere else for extra coverage. This is common in car shows today where you may have one car on your display with another strategically located in an entrance to another hall or the entrance to the show itself.

2169 is a deep dark red metallic almost like a Rosso Rubino metallic with yellow mica flake, very unique color. The color has a very broad range in its value shift. It goes from a very warm orange to a very dark purple/black. The highlights are very hot with very dark lowlights. When photographed in black and white the highlights will turn almost white and the lowlights will turn almost black. If you look closely at the b/w photos of MM16229 you do not get this color shift. If you look closely at the photo of the GTE on the Paris stand you can see how it goes from white in the highlights to black in the low lights with a lot of gradation on the bone lines. This is a good indication that the car pictured is 2169GT and not 2043GT. This gradation can also be seen in the color photo Zac posted from the original ad shot for the car along the stone wall. Although the photo is very washed out you can see how hot/orange the color is in the highlights and its shift to a very dark purple/black in the lowlights.

[Art S.]

Scott,

That's one hell of an explanation, I'm impressed! I cannot offer an educated opinion on the subject, but it sounds great.

Regards,

Art S.

PS. Good Luck Zac: you are the prince (not yet king but working on it) of the 2+2s.

[afwrench]

Hey Art , get those guys from Fchat who are ready to kill each other over 0846 to chime in. They will get it straightened out lickety split!