365 GT 2 + 2 restoration

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A.D.
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Location: INDIA

365 GT 2 + 2 restoration

Postby A.D. » Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:14 pm

I have recently become the proud owner of a 365 GT 2 + 2
S No 12171.

The car smokes, runs fuel rich, and lacks power.I have been on Ferrarichat and have recd some invaluable advice from some of you who post there.

I called out a carb rebuild kit from Pierce manifolds to attempt rebuilding the weber 40 DFI carbs.However the kit seems to be far too inadequate for attempting a serious rebuild.I am therefore (instead) now thinking of pulling the carbs and sending them to Mike Pierce at Pierce Manifolds for rebuilding.

My question is-have any of you had an experience with Pierce manifolds and is this the correct approach-of letting an expert do the rebuild rather than attempting to rebuild them myself? Is there anyone else other than Pierce manifolds that you would recommend?

A.D.

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tyang
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Postby tyang » Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:32 pm

Welcome to my site!

There is not much to a rebuild kit, but there are a few things that tend to go wrong with an old Weber. The throttle shafts wear out, and ovalize (is that a word?) the body of the carb. This wear makes air pass past the throttle plates, and causes tuning issues. The carb bases also warp from age and over tightening, causing more air leaks. The needle valves at the bottom of the floats also leak, and sometimes stick open. This causes the carbs to overflow, and a potential fire hazard.

I have not done business with Pierce Manifold in years, but I had a good experience with them. If they rebuild your carbs, you can at least start with properly operating carbs. There are a bunch of variables involved with tuning the carbs once you get them back, but I'm sure we can walk you through the process.

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
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Postby Rudy van Daalen Wetters » Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:07 pm

No, "ovalize" is actually something that happens to that former high school prom date you haven't seen in 20 years.

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

A.D.
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:52 am
Location: INDIA

Postby A.D. » Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:49 am

Hey!I made a long post but its not appeared-if this one does i will post again :( :(

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tyang
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Postby tyang » Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:59 am

Hi A.D.

Some of the security measures on this forum don't allow you to take too long to compose a post. If you get that horrible message about a message failure, hit the back button, copy the text, and paste it to a new message.

Sorry about that, but it keeps spammers from taking over this board.

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

A.D.
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:52 am
Location: INDIA

Postby A.D. » Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:22 pm

Thank you for your reply to my post.

For those of you who are interested this is the story of my car:

My neighbour bought it brand new in 1968.A bright yellow GT 365 GT 2 + 2
S.No. 12171.

I was five years old at the time, when it roared into my life and thus began my love for classic muscle cars, fast and powerful.

Somewhere in my twenties i tried to satiate this yearning by buying and abusing a couple of camaros, mustangs, a cuda, a 500 sl etc, most of which i still have today.

But the music of twelve cylinders coming to life every morning at 6.45 a.m. drove me crazy until i did acquire the car from my neighbour (37 years later), alongwith a 1972 porsche 911.

I have more or less known the history of the ferrari ever since it drove in next door in 1968.

When i bought the car the engine had not been started for several years and was therefore jammed.After a lot of patient labour-pouring oil through and turning the engine by hand (which process took a few months) changing oil filters, cleaning plugs, fuel tank, fuel line, rear brake pads, cleaning and freeing up the brake calipers, removing and cleaning the radiator etc, i finally had the courage to fire the engine.

The smoke that the car gave out initially was incredible! But after running the engine for a few days the smoke gradually reduced although it still does smoke quite a bit.The car lacks power, smells terribly fuel rich, and after a very short while the plugs get fouled.That is why i am focussing on the carb at the present moment.

The engine sounds very healthy and i feel that a good tune up-rebuild of carbs,new spark plugs and wires, i feel that we should make significant progress.

After reading your post, i now have the confidence to send the carbs to Pierce for a rebuild-as you stated, that way at least i will start out with the carbs done well.

Once they are back , with your help and support i will put them back on the car and also change the wires(have acquired 7 mm red colour spark plug wires and the correct plugs).I have also purchased a synchronometer n adapter from Pierce for synchronising the carbs once they are back.

Is there anything else that you recommend i acquire while waiting for the carbs to come back in preperation for a full tune up-rotor?(rutlands has it) points (dont know what/where to buy)air filters(dont know what where to buy)-distributor cap(dont know what/where to buy from)

my question:should i buy all/any of these? anything else that i havent thought of?

if so any information where to get them from would be greatly appreceated

A.D.

Timo
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Postby Timo » Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:48 pm

A.D.

Now that You'd ran the motor few times, have You performed compression check and "leak-down" tests ? If not, I'll think You should
do those before going any further, especially if the motor was not running for several years, it could have "stuck" rings, etc...
Timo

A.D.
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:52 am
Location: INDIA

Postby A.D. » Sun Feb 11, 2007 1:14 am

Is there anything else that you recommend i acquire while waiting for the carbs to come back in preperation for a full tune up-rotor?(rutlands has it) points (dont know what/where to buy)air filters(dont know what where to buy)-distributor cap(dont know what/where to buy from)

my question:should i buy all/any of these? anything else that i havent thought of?

if so any information where to get them from would be greatly appreceated

A.D.
A.D.
GT 365 2 + 2
S NR 12171

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tyang
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Postby tyang » Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:58 am

I Agree with Timo. Do a compression/leak down test on the engine. If the motor was siezed, there could be some damage to the cylinder walls that would cause low compression. Some of your smoking could be from this. What did the plugs look like after they fouled? Was there a lot of oil residue? Perhaps with some more running, the rings could seat and seal a little better, but having compression numbers will establish a baseline. I've heard of some success using some of the "miracle" additives, but I wouldn't add any until we figure out the root of the problem.

What condition are the ignition parts? With any other car, it would be cheap to replace these parts, but with a Ferrari...the points can be filed, and if the cap and rotor look good, I would try to reuse them for now.

There should be someone here that can tell you what air filter to get for your 365, but if you have a good autoparts store around you, I'd try to find a match there.

I'm sure you've bought the usual books for your Vintage Ferrari to help you tune it. The Tuning Tips and Techniques and the Riff book are good places to start.
http://www.velocepress.com/books/italian.php

You have a great story beind this car. Good luck, and I'm sure I speak for the rest of us when I say we look forward to helping you get this old girl back on the road!

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

Timo
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Postby Timo » Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:47 pm

A.D.,

did You drained ALL the old gasoline out, not only from the tanks, but also from the entire fuel system or did You just added "fresh" gas into
the tanks ? If didn't drained it ALL and flushed/cleaned Your entire fuel system, You should also do it NOW and replace the gas ONLY with "fresh" fuel, before going any further. And while Your at it, clean/replace all the fuel filters and flexible fuel hoses also. This of course becomes an secondery issue, if Your compression/leak-down tests aren't giving satisfactory readings. So, do Yourself a favor and perform those tests first.
Timo

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
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Postby Rudy van Daalen Wetters » Sun Feb 11, 2007 3:10 pm

A.D.

This might also be a good time to flush the cooling system, especially since the car has been sitting for a while. Make sure you flush the heater core as well. Check that both electric fans are working too. I would also consider replacing the radiator cap with a new one.

My brother has a 365 2+2 as well. Great cars.

Good luck,

Rudy van Daalen Wetters
1963 GTE s/n 4001
1966 330 GT s/n 8705

A.D.
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:52 am
Location: INDIA

Postby A.D. » Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:47 am

thanks guys for all the input.

1.have bought both books already

2.drained the fuel tank infact removed it from the car cleaned it thoroughly and changed the fuel lines and fuel filter before filling it with fresh gasoline

3.flushed the cooling and heating system as well as recored the radiator, and changed the rubber hose pipes.

4.ignition parts look fine and therefore havent changed them.after fouling, when the car doesnt start the plugs look black.have acquired a new set of plugs and wires which i will fit only after i have the carbs back from rebuilding.

5.have not changed the radiator cap as this one looks fine and in any case the car is not overheating or losing coolant.

6.this car has only the one fan attached to the engine-you mentioned two cooling electric fans-but my car doesnt have any electric fans.i will retrofit these at a later stage.

7.as advised by all of you i am now proceeding with a compression and leakdown test(although i am confused by the leakdown numbers being expressed as a percentage when the gauge is in lbs-have asked the shop for a clarification-but could you throw some light on this?)

will keep you posted on the results of the compression n leakdwn test

fingers crossed-i am a little worried-in case the numbers clearly show that the engine does definitely need a rebuild i dont know what i will do.......

A.D.
A.D.

GT 365 2 + 2

S NR 12171

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tyang
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Postby tyang » Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:47 am

Hi A.D.,

Sounds like you're doing due dilignece!

The leak down test is done with compressed air. There are two gauges on a leak down tester. One shows the pressure of the air going into the cylinder via the spark plug hole. The second gauge shows the air pressure coming out of the cylinder. The percentage is the difference of these two values. Setting the regulator to the ingoing gauge to 100 pounds of pressure gives you percentage numbers on whatever the second gauge reads. These measurements are done on each cylinder at Top Dead Center so both valves are closed.

Does that sound clear guys?

Where the hissing sound comes from also gives clues to where the problem lies. Hissing from the carbs means a bad intake valve, hissing from the exhaust is a bad exhaust valve. hissing from the oil filler caps means bad rings.

Tom
Last edited by tyang on Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'63 330 America #5053

Timo
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Postby Timo » Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:01 pm

A.D.

Testing gauges for leakdown are different then those used to measure compression. To measure cylinder leakage You need a supply of clean, compressed air and a testing equipment that preferably has built-in pressure regulator/gauge indicating at least up to 100 lbs or 700 kPa and gauge indicating percentage of cylinder leakage (i.e. Snap-On Cylinder Leakage Tester # EEPV309A as I have, but I'm sure there are others out there).
Timo

A.D.
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:52 am
Location: INDIA

Postby A.D. » Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:42 am

An update:

Nobody out here has heard of a leakdown test or has the gauge!

Cannot understand why as from what you have described it seems like an excellent way to pinpoint problems with the engine.

have ordered a leakdown tester from summit racing equipment and should have it in my hands by mid next week.

Will perform the leakdown test as well as the compression test at that time and keep you advised of the results!

Best

A.D.
A.D.

GT 365 2 + 2

S NR 12171


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