Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes

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abrent
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2002 1:50 am

Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes

Post by abrent »

Hey, while we're at it, why don't we bagg it - 20" chromies with spinners and Doof Doof sub's?

Come on Guy's. It's 7 REBUILDABLE components, and some lines. I know it was a total pain for Tom to get to florida, but trust me I drove my car back and fourth in LA., Manhattan Beach to Hollywood - in traffic, most day's, for years. Sure there was some downtime, sure I got a couple of "please explain the smoke" letters, sure "he who can't be mentioned" was watching my every move for something to fall off, but it kept going and stopping like a regular car. I had passengers sometimes. Sometimes, (heaven forgive me) I had stuff in the car. Went to Monterey in it, and back - the long way. With a bit of luck and a regualar top up of fluids, It's possible.

Now - if you want to change something for the better - get rid of those carburettors and put in a real fuel injection system - that would be an improvement.
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Bryan P
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Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes

Post by Bryan P »

along those lines - Michael Bayer found a black sleeve material that can be shrunk over a new braided stainless steel line and appears to match the old rubber flex line material.

Michael??

and look, no cat pics!!
1968 365 GT 2+2
s/n 11199
1955 s.II 500 Mondial
s/n 0556(0446)MD
1965 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint Speciale
Michael Bayer
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Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2002 7:22 am

Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes

Post by Michael Bayer »

BrianP is correct, I but I did not make them, Richard Garre did, they look just like the real thing (OK Parker would spot them on the Pebble Beach Lawn) and what a differewnce they made, it SIGNIFICANTLY improved the braking feel and response, it is one of those small things that really transform a vintage car, like tossing the lead ceramic fuses or replacing the rubber bits in the suspension. I highly recommend it, and Richard knocks them out quickly and at a modest cost. M
Michael J. Bayer
330GT s/n 9727
365GTC4 s/n 14943
Dino Spider s/n 1193
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tyang
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Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes

Post by tyang »

abrent wrote:Hey, while we're at it, why don't we bagg it - 20" chromies with spinners and Doof Doof sub's?

Come on Guy's. It's 7 REBUILDABLE components, and some lines. I know it was a total pain for Tom to get to florida, but trust me I drove my car back and fourth in LA., Manhattan Beach to Hollywood - in traffic, most day's, for years. Sure there was some downtime, sure I got a couple of "please explain the smoke" letters, sure "he who can't be mentioned" was watching my every move for something to fall off, but it kept going and stopping like a regular car. I had passengers sometimes. Sometimes, (heaven forgive me) I had stuff in the car. Went to Monterey in it, and back - the long way. With a bit of luck and a regualar top up of fluids, It's possible.

Now - if you want to change something for the better - get rid of those carburettors and put in a real fuel injection system - that would be an improvement.
My brake system was pretty reliable for the first couple of years, but I'm not so confident any more! If I do modify the system, it'll be very stealthy. The booster can stay in place with all the plumbing "plugged into the carpet."

Tom
'63 330 America #5053
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tyang
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Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes

Post by tyang »

zac wrote:If I were you and functionality takes pecedence over originality why not just run a racing style set up with dual masters and a balance bar. Tilton makes some pretty cool stuff that is not that costly and is proven to function. They also make some much better compound brake pads for the track guys that would probably out perform the stock brakes even with the booster. There are some pretty simple formulas for determining the master required for a giveb brake piston, off the top of my head if you went with. 11/8" master for the front and a 7/8" master for ther rear with a balance bar and bias adjuster you would eliminate your headaches and get to driving. Lastly I would strongly suggest investing the $100 in a set of Stainless brake lines to prevent those questioable rubber ones failing again. It's all well and good to make the original 50 year old system work if you have to but why bother, we have come a long way in that time with brake tech. Disc brakes were a brand new concept on a road car just a year before the GTE

just my thoughts but I know if I was building Ferraris to drive and not building them for green grass and trophy collecting there are plenty of improvements to be made.

Zac
I would love not to modify the pedal box, but it sure would be cool to use all modern (reliable) equipment! I heard Rolofs (sp?) has modified brake calipers so the seals are in the body of the caliper, but they're not cheap!

Tom
'63 330 America #5053
abrent
Posts: 128
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Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes

Post by abrent »

Hi Tom, Look I'm just winding people up. I actually agree with Zac in that there are lots of things that can be done - both stealthly (is that a word) and obvious to improve a 50 year old design. It all comes to personal choice - of course - and what I really like about this forum is that all views can and should be aired. As always, keen to know where you take this.

Regards,

Andrew.
zac
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Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes

Post by zac »

Yes Roloffs makes brake calipers out of Billet, but yes the are expensive. I am sure it's a liability thing since it's not much more than a chunk of aluminum with a couple holes dulled in it and $20 piston. I think I could make the dual master thing work without changing the pedal box, those modern masters are so compact and there is a good amount of space between the pedal box and the floor support member. Stealth wouldn't be an issue since everything is under the car and you could just leave the stock booster there for looks.

Zac
1970 365 gt 2+2 13137, 1997 550 Maranello, 1969 Lamborghini Miura S, 1973 365 GTB/4 Daytona
tim
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Location: sacramento, ca

Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes

Post by tim »

Greetings... About 25-30 years ago, I tried to find someone to rebuild the Bonaldi booster on the Taxi. I was talking to BIll Rudd about this and he said not to many people were rebuildng them since new ones were available. I left with 2 new ones. The Bonaldi is made under license from Bendix and the new ones were Bendix Hydrovac units. Only difference was the thread for the vacuum port. I recently had them rebuilt without a problem. As to silicone brake juice, when I first rebuilt the brakes I had them all sleeved with stainless, changed the brake hoses to braided SS and changed to Dot 5 silicone juice. New clean system. All was fine til I went to Tahoe. I live at 100ft elevation and Tahoe is 5000+ feet. Upon arriving, I had almost no brakes. 3 pumps got some brake action. Scary. I drove the car back home (not the smartest thing I ever done) and found the brakes had returned. Best guess is something had out-gassed at higher elevation and made bubbles. Return to normal elevation caused the gas to be re-absorbed. I do know people who have had no problems with the stuff (people I trust) and may try it again but maybe I'll send the juice to Tahoe for a week to let it out-gas before installing it. Tim
1964 330GT 5769 -the big yellow taxi 61&66 Morgan +4's Daimler SP250 Turner 950S and some other dull stuff plus a brand Mercedes C300 4matic
volkster999
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Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes

Post by volkster999 »

Tim,
Just something to think about, it may not be the fluid. I had a 70s Corvette that did the same thing at altitude with regular brake fluid. I never did find out why. Eventually sold the car.
Best,
Neil
Daytona73
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Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes

Post by Daytona73 »

It' s probably not the same case ,but if readers have brake lock up problems they can check the master cylinder's seals size .

http://www.tomyang.net/cars/ferrari757.htm

Thanks Tom for your forum.
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TOMKIZER
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Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes

Post by TOMKIZER »

OK, five months is long enough to wait for another "stinking brakes" post. I'm hijacking this thread and using it to post a "purist = masochist" post. It had degraded into that anyway.

In early Saturday, July 3, during a day trip to the Quebec countryside for a family reunion, we barbequed chicken, pork, beef, and on the way home late at night, my alternator with about 100 feet of wiring. Fortunately I had my extinguisher along and even more fortunately, it worked! Six weeks later, here I am with a sore back, hands and arms all cut and scratched up, but with a 365 GT 2+2 that has a new 78 ampere Delco 12SI internally regulated alternator and a wiring system with a new (read that "no longer a fire hazard") electrical system architecture. The alternator itself is the only visible difference (noticible by judges) from the original, except the ammeter no longer waves around like the cape of a bullfighter. Even the alternator pulley, fan, and belt were reused.

Because of the electrical system architecture redesign, the all the lights are brighter, the radiator fans run faster, the alternator charges all the time (even at idle), and the high current wires that were once plentiful behind the instrument panel are 95% gone. The one that is left is circuit protected outside the passenger compartment.

After having driven it about 100 miles, I've fallen in love with it again. I seems like a 20 year newer car, although it looks the same. I documented everything, so if anyone has alternator problems. Contact me and I'll share all the schematics and sub-schematics and explain the reality of doing it in the car.

Here's the visible difference. Ignore the hose and clamp changes.

Tom Kizer
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Original 55A Marelli
Original 55A Marelli
Marelli.JPG (139.6 KiB) Viewed 10917 times
New 78A Delco
New 78A Delco
delco.JPG (104.74 KiB) Viewed 10916 times
So many sidewalk cafés - so little time left.
1969 365 GT 2+2 S/N 12293 (Gone but not forgotten)
1967 230 SL 4-spd (Currently on CPR)
afwrench
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Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes

Post by afwrench »

Oh Tom! In trying to avoid the darkness you have gone over to the "dark side".Whats next ,lash caps? Mike PS I would love to see the wiring setup
72,365gtc4,14681,2007 599 GTB
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TOMKIZER
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Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes

Post by TOMKIZER »

afwrench wrote:Oh Tom! In trying to avoid the darkness you have gone over to the "dark side".Whats next ,lash caps? Mike PS I would love to see the wiring setup
Hi Mike,

PM me your email address and I'll send you the schematics and a description.

There was no need for insults. To show that there are no hard feelings, I'm posting a photo of the me and the car after the repairs.

Tom K
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Darth in car.jpg
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So many sidewalk cafés - so little time left.
1969 365 GT 2+2 S/N 12293 (Gone but not forgotten)
1967 230 SL 4-spd (Currently on CPR)
PSk
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Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes

Post by PSk »

Okay this thread has degenerated into a "is it acceptable to modernise an old car" thread.

My opinion on this is if it makes the car driver like a newer car, then the answer has to be no. But if it just makes it more reliable like the alternator then I can understand it.

We have to remember we are supposedly into old cars because we like driving old cars, thus modern brakes, etc. just takes that experience away and we are on the way to converting an old Ferrari into a modern apliance like a Toyota.

So regarding the brakes, there is no way I would change your car Tom. You had a minor part fail and now it is being repaired/rebuilt and thus problem will be over soon. The only thing I would ever do to brakes is think about converting to a dual circuit, and I do not know if these old Ferraris are single circuit or dual. Single circuit is somewhat dangerous and also a dual circuit does not mean the car brakes any better, it is just safer in the event of a leak.

If you make an old car brake better then you really need to look at redesigning the suspension and it's chassis pickups as things are going to be stressed more than they were designed for, etc.

And again I just don't get the "make my old car drive like a modern car view point" ... just be honest and accept that you do not actually like old cars and buy a newer one.
Pete
afwrench
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Re: Brakes! We don't need no stinkin brakes

Post by afwrench »

The color of the car looks great with your outfit. Mike
72,365gtc4,14681,2007 599 GTB
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