Pertronix kit to replace points in S85

[carello]

Has anyone successfully used the current Pertronix kits to replace their points in Marelli S85 equipped Ferrari?
250, 275, 330, 365?
Has anyone put both sensors in one S85 and slaved the other S85for spark distribution?
Pictures and part numbers please of the Pertronx components? Pictures of any custom mount plates?
thanks
Craig

[250GT]

Has anyone successfully used the current Pertronix kits to replace their points in Marelli S85 equipped Ferrari?
250, 275, 330, 365?
Has anyone put both sensors in one S85 and slaved the other S85for spark distribution?
Pictures and part numbers please of the Pertronx components? Pictures of any custom mount plates?
thanks
Craig

Craig, a lot of owners expect enormous improvement by making this "upgrading"
In my eyers it a REAL devaluation and brings nothing than no points and condensor replacement.
Those parts(point and cond.) are really cheap and easy to get.
Those Marelli`s S85 distrubutors are fantastic high quality parts.
Check al the bearings and the drivingtrain parts. that will bring it.
Maybe it brings some improvement by mono-distrubutor working V12 ( between approx. serie# 800 -1100 there were a few biuld)
Those have trouble over 5000 RPM
ciao
C.

[tyang]

Not to highjack Craig's initial question but...There's a lot of discussion on whether to switch to electronic ignition. Some of it is pure marketing.

I agree that a fatter spark at start up is one advantage, but sometimes this is not from the electronic ignition, but from the high draw from the starter giving less voltage to the coils!

Converting to a single distributor triggering has been an interesting modification. Marelli dual point distributors have four sets of points in a V-12 engine to phase together so they fire in the right place, so conceptually eliminating all these variables to one triggering device seems to simplify the process. This works if the right process is done on making sure everything is timed properly when the system is set up. Making sure the primary distributor used to time the spark event is properly matched to the other bank is obviously crucial. Simply setting things on factory marks is not enough, especially if you're seeing the full accuracy of the new system. The other problem I have is having a "limp home" procedure if any of these electronic systems.

I've had black boxes stop working without warning, and it's frustrating to troubleshoot a system only to find it's the box that failed. There's not much choice at that point but to swap out the box. With the pertronix system, it replaces the points with a magnet and pickup, so when it fails, you have to swap out the unit or reinstall and gap points to get the car running again. It's not fun to do this at the side of the road.

MSD uses the existing points as the trigger, so if it fails, there's perhaps an easier fix on the roadside.

MSD however brings on an interesting question to me. MSD stands for Multiple Spark Discharge, and if you read their marketing, it gives you multiple sparks for every spark event to up to certain point but not through the whole rev range. The dwell is just not long enough at higher RPM to give multiple sparks. Where do Ferrari engines make most of their power? Chances are at that RPM range, you're only getting one spark discharge per firing. Now, that's not to say it's not stronger that conventional ignition, but something to think about what you're paying for.

Tom

[tyang]

Hey Cornelis,

BTW, do you have any idea how $$$ that 12 point distributor is worth!? Rare as hen's teeth.

Tom

[carello]

Thanks Cornelis and Tom,
Who is running the current Pertronix kits , like an MR1122 in dual S85's?
Has anyone put both triggers in one Marelli and slaved the other?
I tested an S129 with home made Pertronix, 2 triggers in one, and it has worked fine for years. My dual Pertronix experience is this one application. I would like to try another in an S85 application.
thanks
Craig

[carello]

Here is another Ferrari kit with red triggers, maybe this is Ignitor II? The question of "will two triggers fit and be timeable" is easily seen to be as easy as 2-3 years ago with VW kit triggers in an S129.
I guess my only real questions are the details on the slaved S85.
Where to lock the slaved S85?
How best to lock it without damage?
anyone have experience with this?
thanks
Craig

[250GT]

Hey Cornelis,

BTW, do you have any idea how $$$ that 12 point distributor is worth!? Rare as hen's teeth.

Tom

Tom no idea,
With only a hand full biuld one distributor V12 engines the demand will be not so high.
most of them were forced to upgrade to two distributors set up whitch is the easy way.
But this cap will be for sure not reproduced.
for those who are interested in the org partnumber see below
C.

[Timo]

Just within last few weeks I went though an extensive nightmare with a Pertronix conversion on the Daytona engine I did a full rebuild on. Car had already previously been converted to another brand of electronic ignition which had been working fairly well for years, but this Pertronix system was recommended by the shop (very experienced with Ferraris) whom I commissioned to dyno my effort. I don't have time right now to go to all details, but my endeavour took several days of headaches, extensive data collection of low voltage and ohm readings I was experiencing during all this and included number of phone calls and finally a personal visit to Pertronix headquarters to show them my findings to their engineers. Needless to say that they wouldn't admit to any problem(s) on their products and yet I've since heard from couple of outside sources (although, at this time only second hand info) that many shops servicing "F" cars here in the west coast and in Europe has had problems similar to mine when it comes to Pertronix .
Timo

P.S. Car has now been enjoyed daily by the owner for over a week with accumulation of few hundred miles and couple of field reports I've received so far, he appears quite pleased with the performance (= Engine dyno'd 412.5 HP with full U.S.-exhaust and without air cleaner )
Once I get car back for the 1000 mile vital sign check-up in the near future, we're planning to take it back to chassis dyno to get the out-put readings and compare them to ones we got just prior to removing and rebuilding the engine.

[carello]

Just within last few weeks I went though an extensive nightmare with a Pertronix conversion on the Daytona engine I did a full rebuild on. Car had already previously been converted to another brand of electronic ignition which had been working fairly well for years, but this Pertronix system was recommended by the shop (very experienced with Ferraris) whom I commissioned to dyno my effort. I don't have time right now to go to all details, but my endeavour took several days of headaches, extensive data collection of low voltage and ohm readings I was experiencing during all this and included number of phone calls and finally a personal visit to Pertronix headquarters to show them my findings to their engineers. Needless to say that they wouldn't admit to any problem(s) on their products and yet I've since heard from couple of outside sources (although, at this time only second hand info) that many shops servicing "F" cars here in the west coast and in Europe has had problems similar to mine when it comes to Pertronix .
Timo

Hi Timo, Thanks for your input. More details about the Marelli and Pertronix would be best, please.
Is this an S85 dual Marelli system?
So you put the original electronic ignition back in?
You kept the new Pertronix, but they replaced the triggers/modules?, rotors?
Were you able to run the Pertronix conversion on a distributor machine?
Can you supply distributor numbers, and a P kit number or P component numbers?
Thanks
Craig

[Timo]

My research is still on going and I have near future plans to communicate with some of the other individuals who have experienced or have knowledge of similar "issues", so at this point I'm not ready to endorse or discount the use of Pertronix system. After jumping more than fair amount of hoops to figure out how to overcome their (Pertronix modules) potential yet apparent problem, I was able to retain them and make them work (at least for now ?).
I personally have always believed that things like use of points, etc is smarter because it allows one to do something about it if one on that rare occasion would have on-the-road ignition problems. Many people fall for the glossy magazine marketing gimmicks paid by these "modern is better" aftermarket producers.
Just think, that if Your vintage Ferrari (or any other classic car) O.E. ignition is set correctly with fresh components it will run perfectly fine with them and based on the mileage that an average owner puts on his/her car, it'll take years if not decades before it needs any attention again. Deterioration of seals and gaskets related to these or similar items will probably require distributor removal services before the points require adjustment.
Timo

[carello]

I was able to retain them and make them work (at least for now ?). Timo

Thanks Timo, Glad you were able to get the Daytona repaired and underway.
Please keep us posted on your research with others, but it sounds like you are happy with the performance of Pertronix for the time being.
Any chance of locating the numbers? distributors S85? S138? Pertronix kit? pieces?
Is this an Ignitor or ignitor II conversion? i believe the color of the modules might dictate this, with black for Ignitor and red for II.
did both modules require replacement?
What coil system was paired with this new Pertronix? stock, vintage Marelli coils? aftermarket? numbers?
Solid spark wires? carbon core wires?
Hopefully these are sensible questions as i am contemplating a Pertronix conversion and would like more knowledge,
thank you
Craig

[Yale]

I have a pertronix system in my car and though i have had just about every other issue i have nit had any problems with the pertronix. (I hestated repying to this thread because i dont want to jinx anything). Also Bryan Vignale installed thhe two kits i bought somi have no idea the hoops he had to go through. It does 'feel' to me to make a stronger running eaier starting car.

[Yale]

Sorry, typed that on an iPhone. Yeesh.

[tyang]

Tom no idea,
With only a hand full biuld one distributor V12 engines the demand will be not so high.
most of them were forced to upgrade to two distributors set up whitch is the easy way.
But this cap will be for sure not reproduced.
for those who are interested in the org partnumber see below
C.

Yeah, but those few cars that have to have that cap for a concours level show car, almost any price will be cheaper than having one made!

Be careful what you show on this site of your stash or you might be getting bombarded with phone calls!

Tom

[250GT]

Tom no idea,
With only a hand full biuld one distributor V12 engines the demand will be not so high.
most of them were forced to upgrade to two distributors set up whitch is the easy way.
But this cap will be for sure not reproduced.
for those who are interested in the org partnumber see below
C.

Yeah, but those few cars that have to have that cap for a concours level show car, almost any price will be cheaper than having one made!

Be careful what you show on this site of your stash or you might be getting bombarded with phone calls!

Tom

Off topic Tom,
But aren't those concours level car pushed by hand on the green?
Other wise they destroy the original orange paint on the exhaust tips .
Inmagion they burn down the original Ansa decal !
As contrast a pic how they look at my place
best
C