Rebuild costs

Moderators: 330GT, abrent

afwrench
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:13 am
Location: upstate new york

Rebuild costs

Post by afwrench » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:46 pm

On Ferrarichat there is an interesting topic about the cost of a vintage 12 cyl rebuild. Various "experts" have chimed in to state figures from 25k to 100k for a fresh motor. I wonder if Tom might be interested in showing us a full tally of the recently introduced 330 project to get a true picture of costs? If the owner ,who seems anonymous at this time,does not object it might shed some light on the subject. Mike
72,365gtc4,14681,2007 599 GTB

User avatar
tyang
Posts: 3825
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 10:28 pm
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: Rebuild costs

Post by tyang » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:31 am

There's a bit of a pissing contest going on at F-chat (what else is new?), and I don't think I want to throw in on it. There are as many opinions as there are shops that rebuild Ferrari engines. Owners need to do their research, and ask for references. Every shop is going to say they are the best at what they do and want your business, so getting references is key. How much it will cost will vary greatly, so will the cost of a handbag. You pay for quality, and you pay for Branding. The customer decides what they want to pay for.

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

zac
Posts: 330
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:01 pm
Location: San Diego North County

Re: Rebuild costs

Post by zac » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:47 pm

Well said Tom,

While the fixed parts cost remain similar for the 60's engines there are so many other what iffs involved I can't imagine anyone quoting the job in advance or thinking that because customer "A" paid "X" than somehow that's somehow what customer "B" will pay. I just have to add that doing the job cheap and cutting corners will bite someone on the butt wether it's the current owner or someone down the road.

As someone once said to me "Do it right & do it once"

Zac
1970 365 gt 2+2 13137, 1997 550 Maranello, 1969 Lamborghini Miura S, 1973 365 GTB/4 Daytona

donv
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2002 10:27 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Rebuild costs

Post by donv » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:00 pm

I tried to do that over there, but various people got into a whole one-upmanship thing about costs.

My 365GT motor cost approximately $31k, including a new clutch and various "while you're in there" items (but not including carb rebuilds, as they were done by Pierce Manifolds about a year before). I certainly did not cut any corners.

The guy who did it, Jim Trofiter, is very competent and has rebuilt a number of Ferrari V-12s, but he isn't a "name brand" who anyone outside of Portland will recognize.
1969 365GT 2+2

User avatar
tyang
Posts: 3825
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 10:28 pm
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: Rebuild costs

Post by tyang » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:44 am

As Zac said, each engine is different and it's hard to predict what the costs are. Working at a shop, we are always strapped with trying to prepare an owner for possible costs, but no matter how much we try, it seems it always costs more than we predict.

Each shop needs to discuss with the owner what kind of rebuild they want. It's kind of like restoring anything in this world. How far do you want to go? You can restore an old house anywhere from $50K- 1mil plus. Each way will keep your head dry, but some will do it with some fancy stuff. Yes, you can do a rebuild for cheaper than is discussed on F-chat, but you need to find a good shop that you can trust.

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

afwrench
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:13 am
Location: upstate new york

Re: Rebuild costs

Post by afwrench » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:50 am

I fully understand the variables talked about. I was thinking that here we have situation with reputable people and quality work.How muck to repair the heads ? Parts costs? Machine work? Time? That sort of thing on a project we can see taking place. Mike
72,365gtc4,14681,2007 599 GTB

User avatar
tyang
Posts: 3825
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 10:28 pm
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: Rebuild costs

Post by tyang » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:14 pm

Hi Mike,

I'll try to post some of the costs as they come in.

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

zac
Posts: 330
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:01 pm
Location: San Diego North County

Re: Rebuild costs

Post by zac » Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:27 am

If Tom's customer is willing to share the bills on his 330 and since DONV has offered up his costs on his 365 motor that's some good basic info to start with. I just hope that every conversation with every motor job for shops across the country don't start with a "well i saw on TomYang.net that it should only cost X"

Since we are not talking about a specific model car or era than I will assume we are asking about a Ferrari V12 in the 60's to early 70's say between 250 128E/F and a 365 GTC/4. Let's also assume this motor is not from some priceless race car that is rebuilt on an annual basis for compitition or something odd like a 500 Superfast engine. And lastly let's assume the motor is in running condition and all the proper pieces are there, I think we can all agree that it only takes one or two missing items in the Ferrari world can cause costs to rise quickly.

I try to not be the illusive less is more information guy and try to put as much information out there but I feel that can be a catch 22 position when putting stuff on the Internet. I will put some basic hard costs from a 250 motor, if Tom wants to put a 330 motor on here and DONV wants to put a breakdown of his job on here that is at least some basic information as guidelines to go by. I stand by my previous statement though that there is no way to even begin to quote machine work or disassembly, measuring, parts locating& ordering,assembly fitting, final assembly & testing, and detailing Labor. There are just to many variables there and becuase the last three engine jobs heads came off easy doesn't mean that this one isn't going to take days of struggling or that someone previous did shotty welding repairs on the heads/block which have to be corrected etc. etc.

Hard costs you can count on.

Bottom end parts:

set of 12 Carrillo rods 3800.00, old rods can be refurbished if serviceable but I prefer new rods
set of 12 JE pistons 3000.00, again lots of opinions on pistons
set of Main Bearings 1800.00,
set of rod bearings 750.00
head studs 625.00
gasket set with head gaskets 1200.00, prices can very quite a bit and you end up buying two of some gaskets for dry fitting etc.
clutch set 1800.00

Total: $13000.00

potential extras for bottom end:

new crankshaft 6500.00- now available from Motion Products and a real option these days especialy for cranks that are .020 under or damaged which effect the Nitride Hardening of the bearing surfaces, sometimes it's cheaper to replace that to try and reapir a part that has exceeded it's service lifespan.

Liners???

more studs depending on the condition of the existing

Machine work on bottom end: cost very with every shop but this is one of the most important jobs period

cleaning and measuring

line bore checking, machining, straightening

liner boring and fitting pistons, set ring gap and piston fit and match to each cylinder

Decking to correct head mounting surface and set liner pertrusion per spec.

balance rotating assembly

Stud removal and replacement as needed

Bottom end preperation:

internal engine painting, glyptol or Zinc Chromate as per shop preference

paint block and associated parts

assembly

sealer for gaskets

Top end parts: since the heads are where all the majic happens

valves 2400.00

camshafts 850.00-regrinds or new can range dramatically and of course the 4 cam motors are more

cam follower and pins 1600.0

timing chain 200

guides 445.00

seats 588.00

hardened valve screws 315.00

Total: 6400.00

Cylinder head machine work:

surface and repair

replace guides and valve seats

remove broken studs

check line bore on cam bearing caps

check valves and cut/lap to fit new seats,

set stem height and check stem fit to guides

assembly of valves in heads, set up rocker assemblies

so much more goes on but these are the basics.


so basically 20k in rough parts for the long block

another 5k-8k to do the timing case bearings/gears, water pump, starter, alternator/generator, distributors, and carb rebuilding

say 800-1k in plating, hardware, paint and wrinkle painting.

exhaust header coating 500.00

dyno time 1500.00

Those are retail prices on the parts and unlike other businesses there is very little mark up on vintage Ferrari parts, basically i can't buy this stuff for 50% of retail like can if I am building say a modern Mercedes or Porsche engine. The only real profit in the job is the labor which also makes it that much more disireable to use the best possible parts, last thing you want to do is not make money on a part than have to warranty the labor to replace it if it goes bad or fails.

The remaining major costs being Labor and machine work, which as ive stated over and over very greatly depnding on the shop and the job. This is where doing your homework and finding a shop that you feel comfortable with comes into play. Personally I would much rather have a good relationship with the engine builder/mechanic or machinist than save a couple bucks. In theory the motor should be good for 60k miles or more so if the shop did a good job you can enjoy the car probably for as long as you own it. The cost of a good shop will pay itself back over the course of ownership exponentialy, there is a shop for everyone and I am a firm believer in the person not the brand name.

Hope this is helpful and we an have a rational discussion unlike whatever that thing on F-chat de-evolved into, I think with this we can all see how fast things add up and if something gets ugly with the machine work or fixing previous botched repairs or damage.

Zac
1970 365 gt 2+2 13137, 1997 550 Maranello, 1969 Lamborghini Miura S, 1973 365 GTB/4 Daytona

User avatar
tyang
Posts: 3825
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 10:28 pm
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: Rebuild costs

Post by tyang » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:05 am

Hi Zac,

Thanks for doing all the work! One of the big unknowns is whether the engine needs liners because that sets off a cascading effect of machine work and more parts. There are several opinions of whether to replace the liners on an engine. Some feel the corrosion around the steel liners in the water jackets will cause hotspots and after many years, they need to be replaced. Some feel this is not always the case. If an overbore of the cylinder is needed, how much oversize in pistons will also dictate whether you need new liners. There's also a possibility of sleeving a liner (I'm not suggesting this, but it's been done).

Once a decision is made to replace the liner, getting new liners, removing all the head studs, paying for the work to remove the old liners, inserting new ones, and having all the associated machine work done spirals upward.

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

zac
Posts: 330
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:01 pm
Location: San Diego North County

Re: Rebuild costs

Post by zac » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:13 pm

Agreed Tom, the liners are another what if area. Personally I feel they should be replaced but that's one of those opinion statements in the Ferrari engine community so i trued to stay away from that best i can.

After 50+ years of service and many of the cars saw years of neglect or plain sitting around I feel we all have the responsibility to act as good custodians to the cars so that people will be having this same discussion 50 years from now. Some day there will come a point when the block has been machined as far under as it can go or the heads will no longer be serviceable and than a different solution will have to be found. Fortunately the road cars have finally started to see some appreciation in the recent years so people can justify doing a responsible engine rebuild on the car without feeling like they are flushing money down the drain.

Zac
1970 365 gt 2+2 13137, 1997 550 Maranello, 1969 Lamborghini Miura S, 1973 365 GTB/4 Daytona

afwrench
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:13 am
Location: upstate new york

Re: Rebuild costs

Post by afwrench » Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:43 pm

Thanks Zac and Tom . I think this gives a good insight into initial costs . It will be fun to follow along as Tom does the 330 motor and we can see what other than parts is needed. Regards,Mike
72,365gtc4,14681,2007 599 GTB

donv
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2002 10:27 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Rebuild costs

Post by donv » Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:24 pm

I'm looking at the bill for my 365GT rebuild. Labor was 152.25 hours, for $15,225.

Parts were $11,422.85, which included a new clutch disk, pressure plate, and throwout bearing, and an MSD ignition setup. This also included new JE pistons, main bearings, connecting rod bearings, etc.

Machining was $2,658.

I didn't rebuild the carbs, as that had been done fairly recently (by Pierce Manifolds), and I didn't rebuild the alternator, as that had also been done fairly recently.

There were various other "while you're in there" items included in that total, including brake hoses, shock bushings, etc.

There was labor included in the total for running it in on the dyno, but the dyno time itself was billed separately, and I don't have that bill handy.
1969 365GT 2+2

mark
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2002 4:26 pm
Location: seattle
Contact:

Re: Rebuild costs

Post by mark » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:32 pm

No sales tax in Oregon!
69 365 gt 2+2, 12659
98 M3, 02 Porsche 996
98 550 Maranello

hangten
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:14 pm

Re: Rebuild costs

Post by hangten » Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:25 am

One item that often needs replacement on the 250 is the flywheel as there is not much thickness if it needs to be surfaced.
Aloha,
Mark

User avatar
rbgdvm
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:10 pm
Location: Connecticut

Re: Rebuild costs

Post by rbgdvm » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:10 pm

Can anyone give me an idea what it should cost to rebuild the water pump on a GTE? It appears that I have a leak from both the seal and the bearing.
Thanks.
Ron
'63 GTE #4151

Post Reply