Headgasket

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tim
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Headgasket

Post by tim » Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:36 am

Greetings Tom… In the past you have mentioned having difficulty with head gaskets. As I shall soon heed a pair, whose have you found to be the best. My old ones did not have the sealant around the coolant passages and as soon as the head nuts were "relaxed" the joint between head and block began to bleed. Anyone ever used a solid copper head gasket?

Tim
1964 330GT 5769 -the big yellow taxi 61&66 Morgan +4's Daimler SP250 and some other dull stuff plus a brand new Mini Cooper S Clubman JCWS

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tyang
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Re: Headgasket

Post by tyang » Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:21 am

Hi Tim,

A lot of shops have had head gasket issues, and this led to the manufacture of the head gasket you see in my latest post:
http://www.tomyang.net/cars/ferrari1340.htm
These are made in Australia by a guy I know near Brisbane. He sells them to a few suppliers in the States, two of which are GT Car Parts and Partsource. For 330s, and 365s, I would only use these gaskets. The problem arises in the water passages and how the machine work is done on the block. Ferrari cylinder liners protrude a couple thousandths of an inch proud of the block deck, and the head gasket is supposed to crush enough to make up for this extra distance. Several years ago, we started having coolant leaks with head gaskets made from Elring, the normal manufacturer of head gaskets. What we discovered was the new Elring gaskets were not crushing enough to seal off the cooling passages. They must have changed the materials used to make their gaskets without regard to the special difference in Ferrari blocks. Most manufacturers deck the block flat so the mating surfaces are flat between the head and the block, so only Ferrari heads (and I imagine some of the other vintage engines that have the same liner protrusion) were having this problem. I know some Ferrari rebuilders deck everything flat (another discussion) and don't have these problems, but that's not the way these engines were originally built.

I believe copper gaskets will do a great job sealing the combustion chamber, but I don't know if it will crush enough to seal the water passages.

Buy the Australian made gaskets for your 330 and you shouldn't have any problems. We've build at least 6 or 7 engines in the last few years with these gaskets and have had no more problems. To insure a leak free seal, I also spray on a copper gasket dressing to give us a little more insurance because taking a head off for a head gasket leak again is no fun!

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

Timo
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Re: Headgasket

Post by Timo » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:26 am

I've found additional/other contributors to this issue, including theories of cause and how to prevent them during rebuild. I'll try to get back to this when I have time for more detailed explanation. With all due respect, just using a different head gasket may not necessarily fix the cause of the problem, just kicking the can down the road for next rebuilder...
Timo

tim
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Re: Headgasket

Post by tim » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:21 pm

Greetings… The old gasket was the conventional steel/asbestos sandwich. I don't think I used a sealer on it. I t didn't have the print-o-seal around the oil passages. The one you pictured looks a lot better. Both heads at Pataricks so just waiting now.

Tim
1964 330GT 5769 -the big yellow taxi 61&66 Morgan +4's Daimler SP250 and some other dull stuff plus a brand new Mini Cooper S Clubman JCWS

jamespatterson
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Re: Headgasket

Post by jamespatterson » Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:21 pm

Question about head gaskets - I was told by GT Car parts that the company in Australia who was making Ferrari head gaskets is out of business and the Elring gaskets are the only option they have right now. We tried a set of the Elrings and can't get them to seal the coolant passages - looks like the liner nip won't compress into the gasket as described by Tom.

Anyone know of a better gasket option?

Thanks

Jimmyr
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Re: Headgasket

Post by Jimmyr » Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:51 pm

I also had good results from the GT Parts Aussy head gaskets, and always re-torqued them after some miles were run.

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tyang
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Re: Headgasket

Post by tyang » Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:00 pm

jamespatterson wrote:Question about head gaskets - I was told by GT Car parts that the company in Australia who was making Ferrari head gaskets is out of business and the Elring gaskets are the only option they have right now. We tried a set of the Elrings and can't get them to seal the coolant passages - looks like the liner nip won't compress into the gasket as described by Tom.

Anyone know of a better gasket option?

Thanks
Hi James,

Call Dave Helms at Scuderia Ramparte
(303) 938-9000

Tell him I sent you. He has the gaskets that will work.

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

jamespatterson
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Re: Headgasket

Post by jamespatterson » Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:50 am

Tom - thanks for the heads up, I'll give Dave a call.

enio45
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Re: Headgasket

Post by enio45 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:12 am

This issue - is it particular to the 330 or other columbo engines?

Im getting ready to tear down my 250 engine for the 58 ellena and was wondering if this is something i need to be concerned with as well?
Ed Montini
330 GT 2+2 Series II - 8289
58 Ellena - 0855GT - orig drivetrain

Timo
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Re: Headgasket

Post by Timo » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:53 am

tyang wrote: Call Dave Helms at Scuderia Ramparte
He has the gaskets that will work.

Tom
Tom, how much personal experience or more specifically, useful comparison data you have with these "new" gaskets ?
With useful I mean by after assembling an engine using some other brand HG and find them "leaking", then without doing any other changes or modifications, replaced those with these and found the problem cured.
I'm just curious because awhile ago the manufacturer sent me a material sample and requested my opinion about it.
I found the design quite well thought out and made, but noticed a detail which still might not prove these to be "cure all" on Colombo design vintage engines.
Based on my (admittedly quite limited) experience and observations how other rebuilders/restorers do it, I believe there are certain approaches to rebuilding these that no matter which brand HG is used, chances for leakage are more likely and other approaches with which any brand HG will likely provide proper seal.
Timo

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tyang
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Re: Headgasket

Post by tyang » Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:44 pm

Timo wrote:
tyang wrote: Call Dave Helms at Scuderia Ramparte
He has the gaskets that will work.

Tom
Tom, how much personal experience or more specifically, useful comparison data you have with these "new" gaskets ?
With useful I mean by after assembling an engine using some other brand HG and find them "leaking", then without doing any other changes or modifications, replaced those with these and found the problem cured.
I'm just curious because awhile ago the manufacturer sent me a material sample and requested my opinion about it.
I found the design quite well thought out and made, but noticed a detail which still might not prove these to be "cure all" on Colombo design vintage engines.
Based on my (admittedly quite limited) experience and observations how other rebuilders/restorers do it, I believe there are certain approaches to rebuilding these that no matter which brand HG is used, chances for leakage are more likely and other approaches with which any brand HG will likely provide proper seal.
Hi Timo,

Elrings DON"T WORK. That I can attest to. About 10 years ago, we had two successive Elring gaskets leak at the coolant passages on the same engine, and on closer inspection of the failed gaskets, we found the fiber material used wasn't crushing enough to seal the water passages. The protrusion of the cylinder liner on Ferrari engines was not allowing the new harder material to crush around the water passages between the head and the block. The Australian gaskets we were using back then was the solution, but since then the manufacturer has stopped making them. The new gaskets took the Australian design and tired to improve on it. According to Dave Helms, he's been happy with the results. Only time will tell if they work, but I'd rather give these HGs a shot than use Elrings!

If you're subtext is about the "decking" of the block on a Ferrari engine, as apposed to the 2 thousandths liner protrusion that is correct for these blocks, that's a whole other issue.

Tom
'63 330 America #5053

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