Has anyone swapped the 250 GTE plug wires recently? What should I get? Packard brand, what model number and what lengths? Apparently, one does not just buy a set with crimped ends (cap and rotor plug)....Instead, it is supposedly better to start with the raw plug wire material. Any secrets, are they easy to guide through the pipes, how much stuff needs to come off (exhaust shields??
It will probably be a trivial thing, but my maintenance activities are limited to evenings when my son goes to sleep, so I need to ensure some efficiency by learning from others...
tia
luke, #4823 250 GTE
250 GTE plug wires?
-
tyang
-
Chris Coios
Hello Luke,
Some suggestions about the wires. Some of this is obvious, but I'll be literal as a few details may save you frustration later.!
I believe Packard 440 is an excellent wire that is the correct color and diameter, with solid wire core, radio interference not withstanding. Best to buy it in a 100' bulk spool and J.C. Whitney used to carry it, around $40. One applicatrion can use up around 40 feet, if I remember. You will have enough for the future.
For the spark plug boots, Bosch Volkswagen-style brown bakelite is frequently used for an outside plug application. These have a threaded spike that goes into the center of the wire end.
For the rubber grommets that insert into the wiring tube holes, best to find a sympathetic industrial rubber supply specialty company in your area, which will have many more sizes available than the hardware store. Go with the ideal measurenments in hand so as not to waste the salespersons time. Find the closest size combination to fit the hole in the metal tube and the wire. If you find the perfect size, buy 100 quantity, it's not much cost, and the supplier will be less likely to consider you a nuisance.
Now make or photocopy a diagram of the plug location, and the firing order relative to the distributor cap. Use this for correct wiring and as a tool for noting the rough wire length for each cylinder.
Figure out how much wire needs to extend typically out of the tube to the spark plug wire, accounting for the length of the boot, and the curve for a comfortable transition to the plug without fouling heat shields, etc. A simple test mock-up will help. The one out the end of the tube will be a little longer. Do a similar exercise for the other end to the cap, keeping in mind that you will pass the wire through the gathering loop/grommet at the distributor base. For each wire measure and add the length within the tube for each hole postion. Add 4" of extra for each wire to allow for mistakes and a chance to re-cut a length. Record all the final rough lengths on the diagram. Save the information for the future too. You can use the old wires as a guide, but best to figure it out if the old wire installation is not ideal.
Now you can take the tubes off and pull the old wires. Strip, prep and refinish the tubes with wrinkle finish black if you wish. You can true up the tubes round and remove any very small dents using various diameter deep sockets as a mandrel to gently hammer form over. Before painting, roll up a newspaper and insert in the tube to prevent paint inside, which makes pulling the wires harder. A length of dowel inserted and sticking out the big end of the tube will allow you to hold and rotate the tube as you spray. Make a coat hanger wire form stand to suspend the tube from the mounting loops. As soon as you are done spraying, transfer tube to the stand using the dowel. Pull the dowel and newspaper. Into the pre-heated kitchen oven at 200 degrees until the paint wrinkles. Heat is essential. Open windows, turn on the fans - the smell will be awful, so do it with no one around, and don't tell your wife what you did, but she will find out anyway as soon as she walks in the door. Plan on dinner out, someplace nice, buy jewelry. Heat lamps will not work well on the tubes because you can never get a uniform temperature around the tube and the thin metal is not enough of a heat sink.
To place the wires in the finished tube: Wipe each wire with a cloth moist with silicone spray. Thoroughly wipe off any and all excess from the wire - you don't need excess coming off all over the place. A tiny amount will lube the wire.
Put a grommet onto the spark plug end of the wire and the tag the spark plug wire end relative to the cap position. Starting with the wire farthest from the cap, insert the wire, but leave the grommet floating. You will have a hard time pulling the wire if the grommet is seated on the tube. Seat the grommets when you are done, they are pliable enough. Leave the planned consistent length hanging out toward the spark plug. Tag the wire again out the other end.
Now as you insert each wire, study where it is going to end up on the cap, and decide whether the next wire should be routed above or below the growing bundle in the tube. Planning will minimize crossing at the cap end. Try to keep all the wires parallel within the tube and do not to cross them in the tube. As long as you do this, the wires will take the least amount of space, and as the shortest wire goes last, feeding the wire will be easy. Remember that Ferrari's method of grouping the wires in a tube already tends to cause cross-fire, so do't make it worse by crossing the wires up even more.
Once all the wires are in, screw on the bakelite boots, being certain to center the spike into the wire core. Seat the grommets. At the distributor end, gather the wires through the loop/grommet, before you forget it. And don't forget the o-rings used either side of the loop for additional organizing. (See parts book that shows these!).
Put it all back on the car. Now you can trim the final lengths to go in the distributor caps, but leave yourself a little spare, say 3/8 inch in case you have to cut again. Double-check the wire tags and the firing order one more time before trimming. First cut better long than short, and you can always do it in steps and test fit each time. Remember to account for the length of wire that disappears into the cap, and this varies for the different positions on the cap! Once you are happy with how it all looks, you can screw in the distributor cap screws to fix the wires from within the cap. Of course, be satisfied you have a cap in good order or replace.
This is sounds like a lot of work, and it is, but it pays to be methodical for a satisfying completion over a weekend or two. (Note: If you choose a Rajah type terminal and separate spark plug boots over, you will have to strip wire ends to bare the wire for soldering. For example, I believe that inside-plug applications used typically an orange colored, straight rubber spark plug boot over a soldered terminal. In this case, you have to install the boot on the wire and solder the terminal end before you put the wire in the tube.)
Have fun. Chris
Some suggestions about the wires. Some of this is obvious, but I'll be literal as a few details may save you frustration later.!
I believe Packard 440 is an excellent wire that is the correct color and diameter, with solid wire core, radio interference not withstanding. Best to buy it in a 100' bulk spool and J.C. Whitney used to carry it, around $40. One applicatrion can use up around 40 feet, if I remember. You will have enough for the future.
For the spark plug boots, Bosch Volkswagen-style brown bakelite is frequently used for an outside plug application. These have a threaded spike that goes into the center of the wire end.
For the rubber grommets that insert into the wiring tube holes, best to find a sympathetic industrial rubber supply specialty company in your area, which will have many more sizes available than the hardware store. Go with the ideal measurenments in hand so as not to waste the salespersons time. Find the closest size combination to fit the hole in the metal tube and the wire. If you find the perfect size, buy 100 quantity, it's not much cost, and the supplier will be less likely to consider you a nuisance.
Now make or photocopy a diagram of the plug location, and the firing order relative to the distributor cap. Use this for correct wiring and as a tool for noting the rough wire length for each cylinder.
Figure out how much wire needs to extend typically out of the tube to the spark plug wire, accounting for the length of the boot, and the curve for a comfortable transition to the plug without fouling heat shields, etc. A simple test mock-up will help. The one out the end of the tube will be a little longer. Do a similar exercise for the other end to the cap, keeping in mind that you will pass the wire through the gathering loop/grommet at the distributor base. For each wire measure and add the length within the tube for each hole postion. Add 4" of extra for each wire to allow for mistakes and a chance to re-cut a length. Record all the final rough lengths on the diagram. Save the information for the future too. You can use the old wires as a guide, but best to figure it out if the old wire installation is not ideal.
Now you can take the tubes off and pull the old wires. Strip, prep and refinish the tubes with wrinkle finish black if you wish. You can true up the tubes round and remove any very small dents using various diameter deep sockets as a mandrel to gently hammer form over. Before painting, roll up a newspaper and insert in the tube to prevent paint inside, which makes pulling the wires harder. A length of dowel inserted and sticking out the big end of the tube will allow you to hold and rotate the tube as you spray. Make a coat hanger wire form stand to suspend the tube from the mounting loops. As soon as you are done spraying, transfer tube to the stand using the dowel. Pull the dowel and newspaper. Into the pre-heated kitchen oven at 200 degrees until the paint wrinkles. Heat is essential. Open windows, turn on the fans - the smell will be awful, so do it with no one around, and don't tell your wife what you did, but she will find out anyway as soon as she walks in the door. Plan on dinner out, someplace nice, buy jewelry. Heat lamps will not work well on the tubes because you can never get a uniform temperature around the tube and the thin metal is not enough of a heat sink.
To place the wires in the finished tube: Wipe each wire with a cloth moist with silicone spray. Thoroughly wipe off any and all excess from the wire - you don't need excess coming off all over the place. A tiny amount will lube the wire.
Put a grommet onto the spark plug end of the wire and the tag the spark plug wire end relative to the cap position. Starting with the wire farthest from the cap, insert the wire, but leave the grommet floating. You will have a hard time pulling the wire if the grommet is seated on the tube. Seat the grommets when you are done, they are pliable enough. Leave the planned consistent length hanging out toward the spark plug. Tag the wire again out the other end.
Now as you insert each wire, study where it is going to end up on the cap, and decide whether the next wire should be routed above or below the growing bundle in the tube. Planning will minimize crossing at the cap end. Try to keep all the wires parallel within the tube and do not to cross them in the tube. As long as you do this, the wires will take the least amount of space, and as the shortest wire goes last, feeding the wire will be easy. Remember that Ferrari's method of grouping the wires in a tube already tends to cause cross-fire, so do't make it worse by crossing the wires up even more.
Once all the wires are in, screw on the bakelite boots, being certain to center the spike into the wire core. Seat the grommets. At the distributor end, gather the wires through the loop/grommet, before you forget it. And don't forget the o-rings used either side of the loop for additional organizing. (See parts book that shows these!).
Put it all back on the car. Now you can trim the final lengths to go in the distributor caps, but leave yourself a little spare, say 3/8 inch in case you have to cut again. Double-check the wire tags and the firing order one more time before trimming. First cut better long than short, and you can always do it in steps and test fit each time. Remember to account for the length of wire that disappears into the cap, and this varies for the different positions on the cap! Once you are happy with how it all looks, you can screw in the distributor cap screws to fix the wires from within the cap. Of course, be satisfied you have a cap in good order or replace.
This is sounds like a lot of work, and it is, but it pays to be methodical for a satisfying completion over a weekend or two. (Note: If you choose a Rajah type terminal and separate spark plug boots over, you will have to strip wire ends to bare the wire for soldering. For example, I believe that inside-plug applications used typically an orange colored, straight rubber spark plug boot over a soldered terminal. In this case, you have to install the boot on the wire and solder the terminal end before you put the wire in the tube.)
Have fun. Chris
Spark plug wires.
A few more notes to add to Chris' excellent post:
For concours purposes, you'll want black rubber boots, but for all other applications, those screw-on Bosch ends are far superior, buy them at a VW hotrod shop. They have enough resistance to help make a fat spark, but not enough to keep from drowning out an AM radio. But we both know it's not the ignition that's going to drown out the radio!
"Packard" wire comes from AC Delco now, part number 1851208. It's hard to find as not many people rewire engines these days. Don't bother with resistor-core wire; it doesn't hold up well to fiddling.
Deane
For concours purposes, you'll want black rubber boots, but for all other applications, those screw-on Bosch ends are far superior, buy them at a VW hotrod shop. They have enough resistance to help make a fat spark, but not enough to keep from drowning out an AM radio. But we both know it's not the ignition that's going to drown out the radio!
"Packard" wire comes from AC Delco now, part number 1851208. It's hard to find as not many people rewire engines these days. Don't bother with resistor-core wire; it doesn't hold up well to fiddling.
Deane
Spark plug wires
Oops, and the "Packard" logo comes off the wires with 3M adhesive remover (great stuff to have around anyway), in case you don't want that V8 hotrod look.
Deane
Deane
I used the Bosch terminals and had trouble with them. The car began to run badly. When I changed to Rajah terminals, it all cleared up. I also seem to recall, although my source has gone on to that big garage in the sky, that using resistance wire between coil and cap was sufficient to quell ignition noise but then what do I know. I'm using Packard 535 (which is reddish) and plane Rajah terminals. Maybe I'll change to 440 and black boots. tim
Spark Plug Wires
Any tips on where I can get Rajah terminals (and boots)? Is there a distributor or part number I can refer to when I call my auto parts dealer ?(motto: uuuuh, we don't have that).
-
tyang
Wires
I would call Ferrari of Atlanta.(800-522-2345).They supplied me with cavis black wire in a spool, the correct bosch plug clips, and ignition tube grommets. Parker Hall (601-638-7856) sells the correct rubber o-rings to bunch the wire together near the distributer. (2 for each bank for a total of 4 needed.) I also had to buy 2 short black coil wires from a local parts store.
Hope this helps.
Stavri
Hope this helps.
Stavri
-
Chris Coios
For the various style Rajah terminals and insulators, etc. try Restoration Supply Company in Reno, Nevada (775 825 5663). They carry an interesting range of restoration supplies, specialty materials and unique hardware. They also have Packard 440 wire in the small catalog. They have always been nice to deal with and small orders are ok.
Regarding wires in general for early Ferraris, to show that there are no hard and fast rules: if you have the book "Ferrari The Road Cars" by Antoine Prunet, see the chapter on the 410 SA, page 123 (2nd edition). There's an interesting photo of three completed V-12 engines at the Factory lined up waiting for installation in cars. The motor in front is an inside plug 250 with the single 12-lead distributor. It clearly appears to have light colored, probably gray, spark plug wires. The motor behind it is another 250 with twin distributors. Light gray wires again. The 3rd motor is 410SA, black wires. Just to keep the concours judges honest, there were days when the supply salesman showed up with other than black! The excellent book Ferrari Automobili 1947-1953 by Millanta/Orsini/Zagari has numerous period photos of competition engines. There are several early photos with plug leads removed by the mechanic, and the leads are resting on the engine. You can clearly see the straight boots. Again the wire color varies amongst the different pictures.
Chris
Regarding wires in general for early Ferraris, to show that there are no hard and fast rules: if you have the book "Ferrari The Road Cars" by Antoine Prunet, see the chapter on the 410 SA, page 123 (2nd edition). There's an interesting photo of three completed V-12 engines at the Factory lined up waiting for installation in cars. The motor in front is an inside plug 250 with the single 12-lead distributor. It clearly appears to have light colored, probably gray, spark plug wires. The motor behind it is another 250 with twin distributors. Light gray wires again. The 3rd motor is 410SA, black wires. Just to keep the concours judges honest, there were days when the supply salesman showed up with other than black! The excellent book Ferrari Automobili 1947-1953 by Millanta/Orsini/Zagari has numerous period photos of competition engines. There are several early photos with plug leads removed by the mechanic, and the leads are resting on the engine. You can clearly see the straight boots. Again the wire color varies amongst the different pictures.
Chris
-
Chris Coios
I looked at my file and found my record of the ideal rubber grommet size for the ignition wire aluminum collector tubes. I believe the round section tubes for 250, 275, and 330 are all similar. The hole in the grommet center for the plug wire is 5/16". The overall diameter of the grommet is 9/16". The seat diameter (the base of the slot in the grommet perimeter) is 3/8". The 5/16" hole is a good fit for the 7 mm wire. Not an easy size combination to find, but it exists - again, try a rubber supplier to industry.
Also, the Rajah terminal for use with a rubber boot insulator is listed as RAJ020 by Restoration Supply in Reno, Nevada. This is the nickel plated solder type. They show a similar solderless type RAJ007 that probably screws onto the wire end like a Bosch terminal, but uses a rubber boot insulator. I think these numbers are Restoration Supply numbers, not Rajah numbers.
I hope this is useful. Chris
Also, the Rajah terminal for use with a rubber boot insulator is listed as RAJ020 by Restoration Supply in Reno, Nevada. This is the nickel plated solder type. They show a similar solderless type RAJ007 that probably screws onto the wire end like a Bosch terminal, but uses a rubber boot insulator. I think these numbers are Restoration Supply numbers, not Rajah numbers.
I hope this is useful. Chris
Spark Plug Wires
Chris,
Thanks for the part numbers for the Rajah terminals. Did you buy your black rubber boots from Restoration Specialties also? Could I trouble you for a part number?
Deane
Thanks for the part numbers for the Rajah terminals. Did you buy your black rubber boots from Restoration Specialties also? Could I trouble you for a part number?
Deane
-
Chris Coios
Deane,
The Restoration Supply catalog lists the black rubber spark plug boot as ELE039, 2 1/2" long, $.50 each. If you go to your friendly old fashion auto parts store, I believe that "Standard", an electric components manufacturer, shows in their catalog a variety of boots, in different styles and colors, straight or bell shape, orange or black, etc. Ask the counter fellow to see the catalog and you can order a box of 50, relatively inexpensive. I purchased a box this way.
Chris
The Restoration Supply catalog lists the black rubber spark plug boot as ELE039, 2 1/2" long, $.50 each. If you go to your friendly old fashion auto parts store, I believe that "Standard", an electric components manufacturer, shows in their catalog a variety of boots, in different styles and colors, straight or bell shape, orange or black, etc. Ask the counter fellow to see the catalog and you can order a box of 50, relatively inexpensive. I purchased a box this way.
Chris
Spark Plug Boots
Thanks, I'll have a look. Got my Resto Specialties catalog yesterday.
Deane
Deane