Well for those of you that were helpful and interested here is the latest on this car. The original post is here:
http://www.tomyang.net/cars/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=448
After the PPI which uncovered a possible bad cylinder(very poor leakdown) and necessary front end rebuild, the car sold, as I'm told, for $57K to some former race car driver in Orange county who walked in and bought on the spot. It came back to Symbolic two weeks later along with a 330GTC the buyer had also recently purchased, to trade both on some Ferrari race car.
As an aside, the GTC turned out to have poor compression and or leakdowns and was quickly sold to another dealer for $75K. It was a silver one that I know I saw for sale somewhere and it may have been on ebay. It had that funky Blaupunkt radio control arm that stuck out from the lower dash...
Anyway, the guy who bought the 2+2 had driven it for 200 miles and my hope was that the questionable cylinder would have seen some imrovement as it was the opinion of my PPI guy and others, that the car not having been driven for possibly several years would just need an "Italian" tune up. So, The car at this point is back at Symbolic and they agree to do a leakdown for me. A few days pass and I get a call saying the car has sold. Again! Turns out the guy who bought the black one they had in November bought this one so he could take the Borrani wheels for his car.
Now the car is again for sale with Symbolic on consignment for $69K. Yes, $10K more than Symbolic's previous asking price but without the Borranis and in the same condition as when all this started(bad cylinder $15K + front end rebuld $5K = $20K). The current owner believes that if it doesn't sell he will sell it in europe as prices there are better. Doesn't seem logical unless someone buys w/o a PPI or doesn't care that one cylinder is bad.
Am I missing something here or is this what people do. I mean spend $60k for a 330 2+2 and then spend another $20K on top? Is the market really moving like this? I am well aware of the dollar/euro issues but it still seems overpriced when you factor in the repairs and expenses.
Thanks again everyone for your helpful input. I may not post often but I do lurk frequently. Yale, thanks for the offer last time. At some point I do plan to chat with you.
UPDATE!-330GT #9387 @ Symbolic test drive last Sat looking
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robsandiego
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:56 pm
- Location: San Diego, CA
UPDATE!-330GT #9387 @ Symbolic test drive last Sat looking
Rob
330 GTC #9055
330 GTC #9055
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Michael Bayer
- Posts: 699
- Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2002 7:22 am
Rob: Sorry to hear about all your troubles in this search. While you were in Symbolic did you see the 365GTC/4 black/tan? It seems to have been there for some time, and while they list it as 13,000 miles, they are also auctioning it on E Bay with 90,000 miles. I would appreciate any impressions you might have of the car, trying to decide if it is worth a 6 hour flight west to see, if you will, send them privately courtesy of Tom's excellent site! I am searching for a black GTC and its a small universe. Michael Bayer
Hi Rob:
I agree with Yale that buying a car just for its Borranis, while it may have made economic sense to the purchaser, I wonder if the right set of wheels could not have been had in a somewhat more traditional way. There was recently a set of them for a Daytona on eBay for $4100. Then there's the moral issue of “stealing” a set of wire wheels, tools, manuals or other items from the car with which they were originally built, forcing a future owner to acquire a new set of them at no small cost, or live with the incorrect components. But that's another issue.
A person could buy a wrecked 308GT4 for a few thousand dollars or a concours-perfect 250GTO for $10 million or anywhere in between. For a high percentage of visitors to this website it must be closer to the former. When I bought my first Ferrari, an 82 European 308GTSi, I decided, because of my funding level (low) and my mechanical ability (high), I could and would accept a rather high number of maintenance issues in exchange for a lower price. I got my current car, a 67 330 2+2 (9129), at a low price because it had dropped a valve. If you are trying to make a profit, this approach works only if the total of the original cost plus the cost of repairs is less than the cost of an identical car without the maintenance issues. BUUUUUUUUT, this must be balanced with the fact that almost every car is going to need something, some of it known, some of it discovered later. Even after putting in a huge effort on the 308, I still had a long list of things to repair, replace or recondition, to bring it up to my standards. Maintenance Items B and C were often discovered while repairing Item A. Not everyone can or will want to put in the restorative effort that a Tom Yang, Kerry Chesbro, or I can and then the concern will be one of the quality of the shop that one pays to do the work. I do it because, most of the time, I can do the work or find someone to do the work at a higher level of quality or cheaper than a professional auto shop (Just look at Tom Yang's work!!), plus, I enjoy it. We here, love Ferraris, so we use Ferrari-math: $28,000 car + $30,000 restoration = $42,000 car. Only you can judge what a particular car is truly worth TO YOU.
I agree with Yale that buying a car just for its Borranis, while it may have made economic sense to the purchaser, I wonder if the right set of wheels could not have been had in a somewhat more traditional way. There was recently a set of them for a Daytona on eBay for $4100. Then there's the moral issue of “stealing” a set of wire wheels, tools, manuals or other items from the car with which they were originally built, forcing a future owner to acquire a new set of them at no small cost, or live with the incorrect components. But that's another issue.
A person could buy a wrecked 308GT4 for a few thousand dollars or a concours-perfect 250GTO for $10 million or anywhere in between. For a high percentage of visitors to this website it must be closer to the former. When I bought my first Ferrari, an 82 European 308GTSi, I decided, because of my funding level (low) and my mechanical ability (high), I could and would accept a rather high number of maintenance issues in exchange for a lower price. I got my current car, a 67 330 2+2 (9129), at a low price because it had dropped a valve. If you are trying to make a profit, this approach works only if the total of the original cost plus the cost of repairs is less than the cost of an identical car without the maintenance issues. BUUUUUUUUT, this must be balanced with the fact that almost every car is going to need something, some of it known, some of it discovered later. Even after putting in a huge effort on the 308, I still had a long list of things to repair, replace or recondition, to bring it up to my standards. Maintenance Items B and C were often discovered while repairing Item A. Not everyone can or will want to put in the restorative effort that a Tom Yang, Kerry Chesbro, or I can and then the concern will be one of the quality of the shop that one pays to do the work. I do it because, most of the time, I can do the work or find someone to do the work at a higher level of quality or cheaper than a professional auto shop (Just look at Tom Yang's work!!), plus, I enjoy it. We here, love Ferraris, so we use Ferrari-math: $28,000 car + $30,000 restoration = $42,000 car. Only you can judge what a particular car is truly worth TO YOU.
Tom Treue
67 330GT 2+2, No. 9129 (former owner)
67 330GT 2+2, No. 9129 (former owner)
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robsandiego
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:56 pm
- Location: San Diego, CA
Gents,
Yes, call it crazy but he did buy it for the wheels. Sean at Symbolic has had an advert in FML for a set of Borranis for him. Mid process I did a pretty comprehensive seach on-line for them and they just aren't out there. I think the buyer also feels strongly about taking it to Europe and making a profit there. It's just unfortunate for me because the car was nice in many respects and it was local which might have saved me +/- $2K in expenses for plane tix and shipping etc.
I'm in the category of spending a premium(as per "Ferrari math")to buy and drive the car now as opposed to waiting to find the $28K(not anymore, really $35K) car and taking three years plus $30K until I can drive it situation. But this premium appears to be greater than I expect or perhaps want to pay? In any event the hunt is rewarding in itself and if I end up keeping my money invested at it's current rate of return, I will have nothing to complain about but the lack of GTC'c out there because I'm at least out pacing the rate of appreciation for F-cars at the moment and by then I ll be comfortable stepping up to the 330GTC. (fingers crossed)
Michael, I indeed have seen the 365GTC/4 and have even driven it. It did handle nicely as compared to the 330GT 2+2.
I think I saw one or two in black in Europe advertised on-line. I'll PM you with my phone#.
Rob
Yes, call it crazy but he did buy it for the wheels. Sean at Symbolic has had an advert in FML for a set of Borranis for him. Mid process I did a pretty comprehensive seach on-line for them and they just aren't out there. I think the buyer also feels strongly about taking it to Europe and making a profit there. It's just unfortunate for me because the car was nice in many respects and it was local which might have saved me +/- $2K in expenses for plane tix and shipping etc.
I'm in the category of spending a premium(as per "Ferrari math")to buy and drive the car now as opposed to waiting to find the $28K(not anymore, really $35K) car and taking three years plus $30K until I can drive it situation. But this premium appears to be greater than I expect or perhaps want to pay? In any event the hunt is rewarding in itself and if I end up keeping my money invested at it's current rate of return, I will have nothing to complain about but the lack of GTC'c out there because I'm at least out pacing the rate of appreciation for F-cars at the moment and by then I ll be comfortable stepping up to the 330GTC. (fingers crossed)
Michael, I indeed have seen the 365GTC/4 and have even driven it. It did handle nicely as compared to the 330GT 2+2.
I think I saw one or two in black in Europe advertised on-line. I'll PM you with my phone#.
Rob
blac and tan C4
I drove that black c4 at symbollic. It felt like it had a healthy motor and it did have a very nice interior (recently retrimmed in connoly). The paint was what made it a 2- car....I made an offer contingent on a compression check, but we were about $5K off. This was before I got my GTE, so about 2 years ago !
I do have to say that I have never driven a street Ferrari that sounded better than a C4. An amazingly visceral symphony. Yes, they look like like a Chevy Monza stepped on by Godzilla, but the sounds, the cabin (love that wide center console / dash fur), and the handling are better than GTEs, QMs, etc.
IMO....
It was a pretty funny visit. I had run into the son of my boss, Ellison. I think he was trading in his NSX on a 360 Spider.
thx, luke
63 gte
I do have to say that I have never driven a street Ferrari that sounded better than a C4. An amazingly visceral symphony. Yes, they look like like a Chevy Monza stepped on by Godzilla, but the sounds, the cabin (love that wide center console / dash fur), and the handling are better than GTEs, QMs, etc.
IMO....
It was a pretty funny visit. I had run into the son of my boss, Ellison. I think he was trading in his NSX on a 360 Spider.
thx, luke
63 gte
Ex 1963 Ferrari 250 GTE, 99 Modena 360, 11 Maserati QPorte S, 08 merc gl550, 67 Cadillac Coupe DeVille Convertible, 2008 Ducati Hypermotard S, 2006 MV Agusta Brutale S, 1991 Ducati 907i.e.
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John Vardanian
- Posts: 1908
- Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:13 am
- Location: San Francisco Area
There is a reputedly low mileage 365 GTC/4 at http://www.lmccars.com that seems to be a decent car. I test drove it a few weeks ago. The car was in the San Francisco Bay Area for repairs at that time.
The car is very original, even though it was repainted in the 1980's to corsa red. But the paint is very nice. Also, early on the car was converted to euro specs for increased performance.
John Vardanian
The car is very original, even though it was repainted in the 1980's to corsa red. But the paint is very nice. Also, early on the car was converted to euro specs for increased performance.
John Vardanian