Hello Tom and company,
I am a middle aged resident of the Alabama Gulf Coast who has decided (for unknown reasons) that he needs a vintage Ferrari.
I have studied this site as well as ferrarichat and Kerry's site. Considering that I'll be doing most of the maintenance and restoration myself, and budgetary concerns, I've settled on the 330 GT. Preferably a Series I, as I like the 4 HL face.
Am I crazy to think that a Series I will be fun to drive in and around town, to the point where it could be used almost as a daily driver? Has anyone found an elegant way to retrofit a modern A/C system in these cars? And finally, what are the best sources for finding 330 GTs?
Thanks for your help, and for this great site. I hope to be an active contributor in the not too distant future.
Charles Hamm
Lurker intro: need reality check
Hi Charles-
I think Yale's series 1 has proven itself able to handle about anything modern roads/traffic can dish out-I think he's got an electric fan if memory serves. Some of the guys here swear they have working AC in their cars-I'm not sure how modern a ferrari you need to look at to be sure it really works as well as it might in a ford or chevy (I know someone with a 456M that complained it couldn't deal with 100 degree weather in DC). I drive mine to work, but I'm a little careful about my travel times and route to avoid the heaviest traffic.
I think if you would be happy daily driving a 1960's anything, a 330 isn't really any different, just more expensive to maintain. If you haven't been in a 1960's car since you were a toddler you might not enjoy the experience as much. A 2003 Honda accord seems like a spaceship after a few hours in a 330.
Its interesting to compare a 330 with a 60's vette (check out the proteamcorvette.com web site) The vette's have shot up on price over the last few years, and even the highest end 330s like the one sold at Symbolic aren't close in value to the big block 67s in similar shape. Everything is available for a vette though, and retrofitting AC should be easy. While the 330 shares alot of parts with other ferraris, italian cars and even the mini cooper of similar vintage(the fispa fuel filter diaphragm) trim items are not as easily replaceable
I think Yale's series 1 has proven itself able to handle about anything modern roads/traffic can dish out-I think he's got an electric fan if memory serves. Some of the guys here swear they have working AC in their cars-I'm not sure how modern a ferrari you need to look at to be sure it really works as well as it might in a ford or chevy (I know someone with a 456M that complained it couldn't deal with 100 degree weather in DC). I drive mine to work, but I'm a little careful about my travel times and route to avoid the heaviest traffic.
I think if you would be happy daily driving a 1960's anything, a 330 isn't really any different, just more expensive to maintain. If you haven't been in a 1960's car since you were a toddler you might not enjoy the experience as much. A 2003 Honda accord seems like a spaceship after a few hours in a 330.
Its interesting to compare a 330 with a 60's vette (check out the proteamcorvette.com web site) The vette's have shot up on price over the last few years, and even the highest end 330s like the one sold at Symbolic aren't close in value to the big block 67s in similar shape. Everything is available for a vette though, and retrofitting AC should be easy. While the 330 shares alot of parts with other ferraris, italian cars and even the mini cooper of similar vintage(the fispa fuel filter diaphragm) trim items are not as easily replaceable
The 330's are a lot of fun but they are not daily drivers. Not that there aren't a few people who use them that way but you have to not care about the car to do that. A door ding in a Ferrari, a new clutch, the mileage at which you need an oil change or to service your suspension, etc., are a bit of a bigger deal then with a Honda. Not to mention the approved tires are $1200 a set! And gas by the way, at $2.00 a gallon, you are looking at $40 a fill up and that might last you a week, (or about three to four hours of driving). Also in the South I would imagine that the car would be quite hot so you should have a shower at work and drive in shorts.
On the other hand, I live in New York City, if you live somewhere where your daily drive is a pleasurable one, maybe even one that allows for some nice spirited sections and you have a place to park your car that you won't ever have to think about it...it could be a real gas to drive the car often.
I think the Series 1 330's are a wonderful car to drive by the way, I think it is a much better car then others of it's era. The steering is heavy if you have to parallel park but other then that it's pretty quick, it handles fairly well and it is fun. There was air-conditioning for the Series 2's and I think there were some Series 1's with it also so that is possible, probably cost you $2000 - $3000 to put it in by the time you rounded up all the parts.
As Fuzsit mentioned I put in a Ken Lowe dual 13" fan and it I have had no overheating worries. You won't be able to hear the radio in the morning for traffic reports unless your stuck in traffic by the way.
Yale
On the other hand, I live in New York City, if you live somewhere where your daily drive is a pleasurable one, maybe even one that allows for some nice spirited sections and you have a place to park your car that you won't ever have to think about it...it could be a real gas to drive the car often.
I think the Series 1 330's are a wonderful car to drive by the way, I think it is a much better car then others of it's era. The steering is heavy if you have to parallel park but other then that it's pretty quick, it handles fairly well and it is fun. There was air-conditioning for the Series 2's and I think there were some Series 1's with it also so that is possible, probably cost you $2000 - $3000 to put it in by the time you rounded up all the parts.
As Fuzsit mentioned I put in a Ken Lowe dual 13" fan and it I have had no overheating worries. You won't be able to hear the radio in the morning for traffic reports unless your stuck in traffic by the way.
Yale
Hi Charles,
Welcome! Having lived in Savannah for a couple years, I can understand your concerns for air conditioning!
While my dash is out, I'm going to make some measurements for Michael Greenspan so we can continue his research into fitting a/c in his 330 America. Be aware that insulation may be a big factor in the effectiveness of the cooling. Not only does a 330 V-12 put out a lot of heat, all those exhaust pipes and mufflers right under the passenger compartment act like radiators! That's why I made sure I insulated the floors when I put new carpeting in.
Tom
Welcome! Having lived in Savannah for a couple years, I can understand your concerns for air conditioning!
While my dash is out, I'm going to make some measurements for Michael Greenspan so we can continue his research into fitting a/c in his 330 America. Be aware that insulation may be a big factor in the effectiveness of the cooling. Not only does a 330 V-12 put out a lot of heat, all those exhaust pipes and mufflers right under the passenger compartment act like radiators! That's why I made sure I insulated the floors when I put new carpeting in.
Tom
'63 330 America #5053
sweaty
Hey Charles-
welcome to the madness!
(Ferrari Fever?)
the AC dilemna is an ongoing issue for us;
I am reminded of the classic Ferrari AC analogy:
3 Mice breathing over Ice Cubes.
The AC in my car works GREAT for a Ferrari
but PISS POOR compared to my chebby PU
I agree that it is a matter of heat management
in the cockpit, rather than merely efficient AC
(after one particularly brutal July afternoon session.
I likened my car's interior to a Pizza Oven)
it seems that once the heat has soaked into the interior
from Engine, Transmission, Headers, and Exhaust,
the AC just can't keep up
that said, I am planning on looking into the 'Tropical' AC System
which uses a seperate Evaporator / Blower that is located in the Trunk
and blows thru the parcel shelf / rear
this setup is more common with the 400 / up
but I have seen a couple on 365 C/4s
and maybe others have seen eariler examples?
the 'Tropical' AC System uses a different Compressor
(according to the Parts Manual);
I would look at substituting a more modern unit
(say from Vintage Air)
and using that to supply the Stock Evaporator / Blower under the Dash
and a more modern (efficient) Evaporator / Blower (again Vintage Air)
hidden discreetly in the Trunk
If Interior is (or is going to be) fully ripped apart
It may be worthwile to spec out
a better Evaporator / Blower
for the Dash, as well
(was there not a thread goin on this?)
If I was to bolster the AC System
(and especially if the Interior was out)
I would most surely look at heat managment in the cockpit
(as our esteemed Mr Tom has done with his rig)
and apply generous amounts of insulation
under floor and on firewall, etc
I did find out with my car
(during the ongoing Engine out service)
that the Heat Shield on the Driver's side
is merely Sheet Metal, with NO insulation
so I removed it to apply some
I am going to go the Industrial heat shield material route
(Refractory / Foundry insulation from McMaster-Carr)
not the Building Supply route
as the performance of the materials
is superior IMHO e.g. as low as .22 BTU / Hr
as for locating a 330 4H
one need look no further than our own Tony (fuiszt?)
looks like a nice choice, and is on the East Coast (aint it?), to boot
I recently saw my first 4H in person
and I am forced to admit I liked it a LOT
photos do not do justice to this car at all
(nose treatment reminds me of the Maserati / Citroen, actually)
very elegant, classic look
welcome to the madness!
(Ferrari Fever?)
the AC dilemna is an ongoing issue for us;
I am reminded of the classic Ferrari AC analogy:
3 Mice breathing over Ice Cubes.
The AC in my car works GREAT for a Ferrari
but PISS POOR compared to my chebby PU
I agree that it is a matter of heat management
in the cockpit, rather than merely efficient AC
(after one particularly brutal July afternoon session.
I likened my car's interior to a Pizza Oven)
it seems that once the heat has soaked into the interior
from Engine, Transmission, Headers, and Exhaust,
the AC just can't keep up
that said, I am planning on looking into the 'Tropical' AC System
which uses a seperate Evaporator / Blower that is located in the Trunk
and blows thru the parcel shelf / rear
this setup is more common with the 400 / up
but I have seen a couple on 365 C/4s
and maybe others have seen eariler examples?
the 'Tropical' AC System uses a different Compressor
(according to the Parts Manual);
I would look at substituting a more modern unit
(say from Vintage Air)
and using that to supply the Stock Evaporator / Blower under the Dash
and a more modern (efficient) Evaporator / Blower (again Vintage Air)
hidden discreetly in the Trunk
If Interior is (or is going to be) fully ripped apart
It may be worthwile to spec out
a better Evaporator / Blower
for the Dash, as well
(was there not a thread goin on this?)
If I was to bolster the AC System
(and especially if the Interior was out)
I would most surely look at heat managment in the cockpit
(as our esteemed Mr Tom has done with his rig)
and apply generous amounts of insulation
under floor and on firewall, etc
I did find out with my car
(during the ongoing Engine out service)
that the Heat Shield on the Driver's side
is merely Sheet Metal, with NO insulation
so I removed it to apply some
I am going to go the Industrial heat shield material route
(Refractory / Foundry insulation from McMaster-Carr)
not the Building Supply route
as the performance of the materials
is superior IMHO e.g. as low as .22 BTU / Hr
as for locating a 330 4H
one need look no further than our own Tony (fuiszt?)
looks like a nice choice, and is on the East Coast (aint it?), to boot
I recently saw my first 4H in person
and I am forced to admit I liked it a LOT
photos do not do justice to this car at all
(nose treatment reminds me of the Maserati / Citroen, actually)
very elegant, classic look
Thanks for all the input.
fuiszt - I had a '68 VW beetle for college and a few years after. Used to drive it from home (DC then) to school in Santa Fe and back twice a year. Loved driving that car. My grandfather had a '66 Mustang without power steering or brakes that was anything but enjoyable to drive.
Yale - Although I'm not beyond driving to work in shorts, I am thinking of frequent driving. To usa a racing analogy, I want a car thats fun at Monaco rather than at Imola. Maintenance costs aren't too big of an issue since this counts as a hobby as well.
Tom - Thanks again for the site! Did coating your exhaust headers decrease the temp under the hood significantly? If so, can that process be performed on the pipes as well?
fest - Hadn't recognized the resemblence before, but I've always liked the Citroen smile. Madness sounds much better than insanity. I am talking with Tony, I know he wants to sell before I really want to buy, but we'll see.
If I may summarize:
Although expensive to maintain, 330 GTs are fun to drive frequently, but are not suited to heavy traffic.
Keeping the 330 cool ought to be possible with dual fans and judicious use of coffee breaks.
Keeping me cool in the 330 may be possible with application of modern heat shield and AC technology, combined with creative engineering. Or maybe I just drive hot and less frequently during the summer.
Lastly, I may be mad with Ferrari Fever, but I'm not being stooopid.
Sound about right?
fuiszt - I had a '68 VW beetle for college and a few years after. Used to drive it from home (DC then) to school in Santa Fe and back twice a year. Loved driving that car. My grandfather had a '66 Mustang without power steering or brakes that was anything but enjoyable to drive.
Yale - Although I'm not beyond driving to work in shorts, I am thinking of frequent driving. To usa a racing analogy, I want a car thats fun at Monaco rather than at Imola. Maintenance costs aren't too big of an issue since this counts as a hobby as well.
Tom - Thanks again for the site! Did coating your exhaust headers decrease the temp under the hood significantly? If so, can that process be performed on the pipes as well?
fest - Hadn't recognized the resemblence before, but I've always liked the Citroen smile. Madness sounds much better than insanity. I am talking with Tony, I know he wants to sell before I really want to buy, but we'll see.
If I may summarize:
Although expensive to maintain, 330 GTs are fun to drive frequently, but are not suited to heavy traffic.
Keeping the 330 cool ought to be possible with dual fans and judicious use of coffee breaks.
Keeping me cool in the 330 may be possible with application of modern heat shield and AC technology, combined with creative engineering. Or maybe I just drive hot and less frequently during the summer.
Lastly, I may be mad with Ferrari Fever, but I'm not being stooopid.
Sound about right?
Charles, Welcome to a useful, friendly site. Your A/C concerns are valid considering that you are in AL. But not all Series II's have A/C, only some later vehicles, and these S-II's are single headlamp. So if you are going to, or have to, install A/C anyway then you may just stick w/ the 4 headlamp model that you like. I agree w/ other posts, might be tough to use as a daily driver to work, supermarket, ball game, fishing, etc. All sorts of help in this forum; just ask, and keep us posted on your progress.
Places to look for cars include the Ferrari Market Letter, Hemmings, ebay, & many internet sites.
Places to look for cars include the Ferrari Market Letter, Hemmings, ebay, & many internet sites.
Jack Horner, 1966 330 GT 2+2 Series II, s/n 8325 (x-1981 Mondial 8, s/n 36213)
-
Dr. Ian Levy
- Posts: 179
- Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 1:16 pm
- Location: United Kingdom
- Contact:
Lurker intro: need reality check
Hello all
Yale
It must be tough at $2 a gallon & $40 to fill up. Only joking!
On this side of the pond my 365 GTC 4 will cost me (if it ever gets to the filling station under its own power) a cool $205 about $8.60 a gallon to fill & I have to travel 40 miles round trip to the nearest place that sells leaded petrol
At least it takes using it daily out of the equation.
You guys are really getting it cheap.& I now know what " there is no such thing as running a Ferrari cheaply really means"
Regards
Ian L
Manchester
England
Yale
It must be tough at $2 a gallon & $40 to fill up. Only joking!
On this side of the pond my 365 GTC 4 will cost me (if it ever gets to the filling station under its own power) a cool $205 about $8.60 a gallon to fill & I have to travel 40 miles round trip to the nearest place that sells leaded petrol
At least it takes using it daily out of the equation.
You guys are really getting it cheap.& I now know what " there is no such thing as running a Ferrari cheaply really means"
Regards
Ian L
Manchester
England
Hi Charles:
I had the engine cooling system in my 1964 330 4HL reconditioned with system flush, new hoses and thermostat, radiator repairs, and addition of a single auxiliary radiator fan that kicks on at 193F coolant temp. I live in Dallas and had no problems last summer with overheating during extended drives in heavy slow traffic in 95F+ temps. Earlier this spring I took a two hour roundtrip drive in city traffic on an 85F afternoon wth no overheating but I did have my first encounter with "vapor lock" after I parked at my destination for 30 minutes, and then started the car and drove right off without using the fuel pump or allowing a few seconds idling for the fuel to fill the lines. This is not my teched-out Toyota 4Runner, I have to remember - these are temperamental old cars even in good tune and you have to learn their quirks.
I don't plan to try to retrofit air conditioning in my car. It's not a daily driver and I just won't drive it as much in the summer. When I was looking for a 330 I came across a couple of Series 2 cars with factory AC but since one of my considerations was to have as little as possible in the way of power accessories to repair, I didn't pursue them.
I'm with you - I think the Series I 330 GT's are the best looking -nicest details and I love the 4-headlight front end - really agressive looking and makes for a standout car. In my search for a Ferrari condition was the most important factor and I certainly would have bought a 2 headlight model but I'm glad I ended up with the 4 HL.
If your'e seriously looking for a vintage Ferrari, especially in the 2+2 models, stay on this board - this is where you will find the info and advice from hands on owners.
I started here in November 2001 and by November 2002 I had purchased my car.
I had the engine cooling system in my 1964 330 4HL reconditioned with system flush, new hoses and thermostat, radiator repairs, and addition of a single auxiliary radiator fan that kicks on at 193F coolant temp. I live in Dallas and had no problems last summer with overheating during extended drives in heavy slow traffic in 95F+ temps. Earlier this spring I took a two hour roundtrip drive in city traffic on an 85F afternoon wth no overheating but I did have my first encounter with "vapor lock" after I parked at my destination for 30 minutes, and then started the car and drove right off without using the fuel pump or allowing a few seconds idling for the fuel to fill the lines. This is not my teched-out Toyota 4Runner, I have to remember - these are temperamental old cars even in good tune and you have to learn their quirks.
I don't plan to try to retrofit air conditioning in my car. It's not a daily driver and I just won't drive it as much in the summer. When I was looking for a 330 I came across a couple of Series 2 cars with factory AC but since one of my considerations was to have as little as possible in the way of power accessories to repair, I didn't pursue them.
I'm with you - I think the Series I 330 GT's are the best looking -nicest details and I love the 4-headlight front end - really agressive looking and makes for a standout car. In my search for a Ferrari condition was the most important factor and I certainly would have bought a 2 headlight model but I'm glad I ended up with the 4 HL.
If your'e seriously looking for a vintage Ferrari, especially in the 2+2 models, stay on this board - this is where you will find the info and advice from hands on owners.
I started here in November 2001 and by November 2002 I had purchased my car.
Re: Lurker intro: need reality check
Now THIS is a serious Reality Check! :shock:Dr. Ian Levy wrote:Hello all
Yale
It must be tough at $2 a gallon & $40 to fill up. Only joking!
On this side of the pond my 365 GTC 4 will cost me (if it ever gets to the filling station under its own power) a cool $205 about $8.60 a gallon to fill & I have to travel 40 miles round trip to the nearest place that sells leaded petrol
At least it takes using it daily out of the equation.
You guys are really getting it cheap.& I now know what " there is no such thing as running a Ferrari cheaply really means"
Regards
Ian L
Manchester
England
Get the Ferrari, insure it as a classic, and then pick up one of those college student $149 a month, 0 down Jetta lease specials . It will have cold air and insurance savings alone (in having the 330 as an occasional driver) will pay for the 3 year lease. And if it is nice out, and all the kids are on vacation and the beer drinkers watching football/NASCAR, you can even take the Ferrari to work.
I tried the "exotic as a daily driver" route several times and it has yet to "take". Perhaps if my taste were in 80s cars, when FI, safety, and A/C made them more tolerable, it would not have been an issue, but I am a fan of pre-74 Italian stuff. Some sort of masochism, I s'pose.
luke
I tried the "exotic as a daily driver" route several times and it has yet to "take". Perhaps if my taste were in 80s cars, when FI, safety, and A/C made them more tolerable, it would not have been an issue, but I am a fan of pre-74 Italian stuff. Some sort of masochism, I s'pose.
luke
Ex 1963 Ferrari 250 GTE, 99 Modena 360, 11 Maserati QPorte S, 08 merc gl550, 67 Cadillac Coupe DeVille Convertible, 2008 Ducati Hypermotard S, 2006 MV Agusta Brutale S, 1991 Ducati 907i.e.
lukek - An imminently sound solution. However, the problem is too many cars. I have an '01 A6 for daily driving and an '87 325i conv. for fun. I think a 330 GT would be a fine addition. My wife is thinking substitution. I'm beginning to think I should rationalize the Ferrari as a hobby and then figure out how it fits in the transportation mix.
bluecat49 - Mobile traffic doesn't come anywhere near the intensity of Dallas traffic, and the heat is about the same. Its comforting to know that your car can handle it.
Ian L - $8.60 a gallon! Requires true devotion to fill up.
bluecat49 - Mobile traffic doesn't come anywhere near the intensity of Dallas traffic, and the heat is about the same. Its comforting to know that your car can handle it.
Ian L - $8.60 a gallon! Requires true devotion to fill up.
Ahhh...the Chief Family Officer factor....
But it is very simple. Your other fun car has to go. IMO, the bimmer should get the "das boot" !
But it is very simple. Your other fun car has to go. IMO, the bimmer should get the "das boot" !
Ex 1963 Ferrari 250 GTE, 99 Modena 360, 11 Maserati QPorte S, 08 merc gl550, 67 Cadillac Coupe DeVille Convertible, 2008 Ducati Hypermotard S, 2006 MV Agusta Brutale S, 1991 Ducati 907i.e.
Charles, I completely understand the "too many cars" issue. I am a fairly new member in the fold with a 250 GTE project. I've been contemplating the sale of my 1974 BMW 3.0 cs because I think the Ferrari will fill that niche and I could use the room. Problem is I really like the BMW.
Hang in there as long as you can and don't make any rushed decisions.
Rad
Hang in there as long as you can and don't make any rushed decisions.
Rad
Unless your BMW has immunity beads given to it by your wife... it's off the island!
****
It's shocking to think, though, that my '67 330 is about the same age now as was my dad's Model A Tudor when I drove it occasionally to high school in '76. Time flies, and 330s are definitely from the days of windup watches. Not at all the same thing as the BMW, but great if you're prepared.
Does you wife drive a manual transmission? If so, she'll probably enjoy the Ferrari.
****
It's shocking to think, though, that my '67 330 is about the same age now as was my dad's Model A Tudor when I drove it occasionally to high school in '76. Time flies, and 330s are definitely from the days of windup watches. Not at all the same thing as the BMW, but great if you're prepared.
Does you wife drive a manual transmission? If so, she'll probably enjoy the Ferrari.
Deane
'67 330GTS (gone but not forgotten)
'67 330GTS (gone but not forgotten)