cost of rebuilding v12

Ferrari Message Board Archive 10/00-8/02

cost of rebuilding v12

Postby wwwboard » Mon Apr 29, 2002 5:31 pm

Posted by John Hancock

Anybody have experience getting a (330) v12 rebuilt? I've heard reports of $20,000 for a complete rebuild. Knowing something (but not a lot) about machining, this seems awefully excessive. Besides the roller rockers is there anything that is specifically Ferrari? Why would a machinist have to have specific Ferrari experience to work on the engine?

Thanks for any insights you can add. There is a 330GT coming up for auction and I presume it needs a rebuild.
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Re: cost of rebuilding v12

Postby wwwboard » Mon Apr 29, 2002 6:07 pm

Posted by Deane

The normally-quoted figure is closer to $25K.  A distributor cap is $250. Valves can be in the $100 range, and there are 24. Pistons are $2000 a set. If you need a new differential housing, it'll be also $2000, if you can find one.

Lots of little things (getting the water pump to stop dripping, for example) take specialized Ferrari experience.

If you look at it in the abstract, driving a Ferrari costs about 50 cents per mile just for the engine rebuild! Make sure you're ready for this before you buy. Of course, driving these cars is really a kick.

If you can, it's probably best to find a Ferrari that is about 1-2 years out of a comprehensive restoration (that someone else has paid for).
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Re: cost of rebuilding v12

Postby wwwboard » Mon Apr 29, 2002 7:55 pm

Posted by Yale

Here is the link for the Mchael Sheehan piece on why rebuilding a Ferrari engine costs so much. Originally in Sports Car Market, a fine publication. Best Yale http://www.ferraris-online.com/Articles/SCM_9812.html
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Re: cost of rebuilding v12

Postby wwwboard » Mon Apr 29, 2002 8:52 pm

Posted by Tom

Hi John,

O.K., Michael Sheehan wrote an article on how much an engine rebuild can cost, and I've reprinted it on this site.

Francois usually charges 120 hours in labor for a normal (if there is such a thing) Ferrari engine rebuild, and is probably considered one of the best rebuilders. Your results may vary. Although you don't have to use someone familier with Ferraris, the consequences of a mistake are all too costly to consider. Many parts for these engines are irreplaceable, and can far out price the cost of a 2+2 if something goes horribly wrong.

If you're lucky, you may be able to get away for under $20K, but it costs what it costs. I've heard many stories of suffering owners spending all their money on an engine rebuild, but once the pain has subsided, the rewards of a good running Ferrari V-12 is something that can make you forget it all! I hope I survive long enough to experience it for myself!

Tom
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Re: cost of rebuilding v12

Postby wwwboard » Mon Apr 29, 2002 9:53 pm

Posted by Peter Skudder

The simple fact is that there are 12 cylinders making the cost expensive. Even if you did not use genuine Ferrari parts and used for example: Carello rods, and had pistons made (which is not that expensive, and they would probably be better made than genuine ones), plus used stainless steel valves, etc. the costs would add up.

In the end an engine is just a piston moving up and down turning a crankshaft, whether it is the latest Ferrari F1 motor or a VW Beetle. The expense comes from the fact that the Ferrari motor has to be able to handle much bigger revs and power, etc. thus requires higher quality components and is not as fault tolerant.

Anybody that has built a race motor will tell you that they use very few genuine parts, and the race parts while they are expensive compared to genuine Ford or GM parts, are not too bad compared to Alfa Romeo, or Ferrari parts. Thus I would not limit yourself to genuine parts if you can get a BETTER quality race part for less cost.

The problem is you need to understand what is going on fully to be able to use non-genuine parts ...

Pete
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Re: cost of rebuilding v12

Postby wwwboard » Mon Apr 29, 2002 10:13 pm

Posted by Tom

Good point Peter.

Guys spend well over $10K building a V-8 to spin up to 8000rpm. Ferrari V-12s were designed to spin 7000 rpm from the factory. That performance does not come from cheap parts, or sloppy labor.

Tom
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Re: cost of rebuilding v12

Postby wwwboard » Tue Apr 30, 2002 9:31 am

Posted by Lee2811

The current price for a factory reman engine for a late Beech Bonanza ( Continental IO-520BB) is $20,650. This for a 520 cubic inch flat six that produces 285 hp @ 2750 rpm. The Ferrari seems the better deal.
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Re: cost of rebuilding v12

Postby wwwboard » Tue Apr 30, 2002 10:55 am

Posted by Tom

Hi Lee,

I can help anyone justify the price of Ferraris compared to other hobbies. Planes and boats can easily cost more. How about country club fees for golfers? Life is short, and it seems shorter these days, so enjoy it while you have the chance!

Tom
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Re: cost of rebuilding v12

Postby wwwboard » Tue Apr 30, 2002 11:20 am

Posted by Lee2811

Hourly rates for mechanics are still less than that for therapists, and parts prices are less than pharmaceuticals. And not to mention the sound of one of these engines turning 7k rpm when you're all done!
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Re: cost of rebuilding v12

Postby wwwboard » Tue Apr 30, 2002 12:11 pm

Posted by John Hancock

Thanks everyone for the advice. The problem is I want a restoration project, not a restored car. I don't mind paying extra for the pleasure of restoring the car myself. I just want to know how much extra I would be paying.

Not wanting to give up the dream yet...the article on engine rebuild costs mentions a price of $1440 for 24 rocker pins and bearings.  Any suitable non-Ferrari sources? Am I naive in thinking they could be custom machined for less? He also mentions valves at $100+ per, I know Manley sells high performance custom-machined valves for less. Does anyone have any recommended sources for (high performance) bearings, pistons, etc. that I could take a look at?

Thanks again, John
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Re: cost of rebuilding v12

Postby wwwboard » Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:09 pm

Posted by Aaron Masters

John,

I thought I would through my 2 bits into the puddle at the risk of wasting your time on another perspective.

My objectives were to have a Ferrari that I could dependably drive, perfection oriented to originality was not on the “must” list, although I have been very careful to keep all the old parts, and not make any modifications to the car.

I do all my own mechanical work, and tend to look on each worn or broken situation as a challenge to my ability and my wallet.  I look at he car as a hobby and have thoroughly enjoyed the experience.  

I have been fixing things for about 2 years and have put about 10K miles on the care – 5K post engine rebuild.  I created a fix-it list when I purchased the car and addressed the critical items first.
  

Expenses in the 365/4 cam engine are as follows.

Stainless Steel valves & silicon bronze guides  $1700  
Rings – From Hastings     $  150
Gasket Set     $  600
Head Gaskets     $  200
Head Machine work     $ 1500
Misc .  Stuff I do not remember     $   400

Total --     $4550
I did not replace pistons, Water pump was fine.

Next time – I will use generic “O” rings
      Make my own exhaust gaskets
      Use silicon on valve covers
      By generic copper washers/seals
      By generic oil seals (measure and buy to dimension)

I’m guessing that I have about 100 hours in the engine rebuild.  I probably have another 25 in getting it in and out.  A significant amount of time was towards learning.  I also had to fabricate an engine stand – 6 hours + $50 in material at a local metal supply.    

Putting  syncros in the transmission

Syncro Rins (5) $ 600
Syncro Slider (1) $ 500
Gasket Set $   50
Several types of Lubricant (experiments)      $  120  

40 hours – The transmissions shafts are held together with ferrules that have 4 notches.  Made sockets for these out of US truck axels sockets – not actually that hard to do – cutting, filing welding – just takes time.  (Beware – some of the ferrules are left hand thread)

My general experience is that the Ferrari is engineered pretty well and once you figure out how things were meant to work, they disassembly, repair, assembly… is fairly easy. There is just a lot of stuff to do.

Secondly, I continue to shop around for parts. There are large differences between the various suppliers and it is part dependent. No one supplier has the best prices on all items.
John,

I thought I would through my 2 bits into the puddle at the risk of wasting your time on another perspective.

My objectives were to have a Ferrari that I could dependably drive, perfection oriented to originality was not on the “must” list, although I have been very careful to keep all the old parts, and not make any modifications to the car.

I do all my own mechanical work, and tend to look on each worn or broken situation as a challenge to my ability and my wallet.  I look at he car as a hobby and have thoroughly enjoyed the experience.  

I have been fixing things for about 2 years and have put about 10K miles on the care – 5K post engine rebuild.  I created a fix-it list when I purchased the car and addressed the critical items first.
  

Expenses in the 365/4 cam engine are as follows.

Stainless Steel valves & silicon bronze guides  $1700  
Rings – From Hastings     $  150
Gasket Set     $  600
Head Gaskets     $  200
Head Machine work     $ 1500
Misc .  Stuff I do not remember     $   400

Total --     $4550
I did not replace pistons, Water pump was fine.

Next time – I will use generic “O” rings
      Make my own exhaust gaskets
      Use silicon on valve covers
      By generic copper washers/seals
      By generic oil seals (measure and buy to dimension)

I’m guessing that I have about 100 hours in the engine rebuild.  I probably have another 25 in getting it in and out.  A significant amount of time was towards learning.  I also had to fabricate an engine stand – 6 hours + $50 in material at a local metal supply.    

Putting  syncros in the transmission

Syncro Rins (5) $ 600
Syncro Slider (1) $ 500
Gasket Set $   50
Several types of Lubricant (experiments)      $  120  

40 hours – The transmissions shafts are held together with ferrules that have 4 notches.  Made sockets for these out of US truck axels sockets – not actually that hard to do – cutting, filing welding – just takes time.  (Beware – some of the ferrules are left hand thread)

My general experience is that the Ferrari is engineered pretty well and once you figure out how things were meant to work, they disassembly, repair, assembly… is fairly easy. There is just a lot of stuff to do.

Secondly, I continue to shop around for parts. There are large differences between the various suppliers and it is part dependent. No one supplier has the best prices on all items.

Aaron


















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Re: cost of rebuilding v12

Postby wwwboard » Tue Apr 30, 2002 10:51 pm

Posted by Peter Skudder

Tom,

Sorry I did not mean that Ferrari's are not made well or that specialists are not experts, but as with many specialist cars there is a lot of hype about how complicated they are, etc.

If you are going to work on any motor/car one needs to understand what they are for and work accordingly, but it is still just a machine doing a designed job. In my work with ordinary cars many customers are scared of buying Alfa Romeos, Ferraris, Porsches, etc. because of this hype which in a lot of cases in unnecessary. Look at the great work you are doing which gives us all confidence to take on more complicated tasks

The reason V8's cost so much to make them rev, etc. is that a lot of re-machining needs to occur as the tolerances were set for the extremely high manufacturing volumes. This re-machining does not have to happen to the same degree with Alfa Romeos, and I expect Ferraris.

Anyway I will happily enjoy the rebuilding task of a Ferrari engine when the time comes.

Pete
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Re: cost of rebuilding v12

Postby wwwboard » Tue Apr 30, 2002 11:45 pm

Posted by Tom

Hi Peter,

No reason for an apology! We certainly are not talking about rocket science, but it still amazes me how may "butchers" there are that claim to be qualified mechanics!

In the last few years, I've had many conversations with very qualified engineers and rebuilders discussing how to find replacement (cheaper) Ferrari parts for a rebuild. The knowledge and ability to know how to measure, and choose parts that will work is perhaps beyond my abilties, and level of risk. I hope John and others try to find some of these sources, and share them with us so we can all benifit and enjoy these old Ferraris for less money!

Tom
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Re: cost of rebuilding v12

Postby wwwboard » Wed May 01, 2002 9:56 am

Posted by Todd

Just to chime in here, I understand from some folks that it is a matter of knowing who made what for the engines. Ferrari did not manufacture every part themselves, so some of the parts come from elsewhere, such as Mahle pistons. I have been told that the key is knowing what the parts actually were and buying them outside the "official" Ferrari sources so that you don't have to feed their high overhead, low volume operations.
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Re: cost of rebuilding v12

Postby wwwboard » Thu May 02, 2002 12:40 pm

Posted by vincent

try modenamotori@.com
i know a well knowned official french Ferraris dealer who buy alot of parts here
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