The 10th new Ceam electric switch

[250GT]

Over Eastern visit at the atlantic coast of the north of france.
Oyster, humar, Chablis/Sancerre and hot.
Again on the way back in Belgium sudden death of all electric components at speed.
All fuses OK , again the Ignationswitch with only contact in the first 2 steps of the switch, not in the last step.
No big trouble, but after all those years I haven't still found a real good DIAGNOSE how it happens over and over again.
Over 25 years I have this problems on diff. 250GT 's
I always carry one new Ceamswitch and a spare Fispa sup 500 in the car.
so after 20 min it goes on again
In the switch you can clearly see that one cupper contact tonque is burned( blue) and loose his elasticy to the contact wheel at the body .
so sudden death of engine .
Tom Kizer you're electricopinion is asked.
This N.O.S ceam managed about 25000 km.
Everything has earth wiring. And high torque starter with relais in between.
I am a partexchanger, but would I like to know more

Cornelis

[250GT]

Hard to believe NO one here has met with this problem before.( Zac, 8339)
To repair on the road is rather simple .
you only need a small screwdriver and take off the brownbakelit on back side: 2 little screws.
The cupper tonques are preloaded( like a sping)
the rest will be untouched .keys etc
there are however differant backside connectors: see pic
the one till 1960 has the plug- in system.
after 1960 I believe on 250GT&330GT the newer connectors.
those Ceam Ignationswitches can be found at Lambo ,Iso ,Lancia and some Alfa's
The third inside cupper tonque can be switched with the contralateral one.
After I use the hightorque starter- since 4 years- I hoped this phenomenan was gone.
For those who also collect roadmiles instead of airmiles.
I would advice to get a spare.

C.

Best

[Pied-Noir]

I've had that very same problem with the old 330 many times, when on log trips or on very hot days, the switch would get very hot (including the key) and then all went dead. Got to be a pro at hot-wiring the system and getting back on the road in less than 7 minutes. Even made a connector block to speed up the hot-wiring. The problem was that the contact copper blades were worn and when hot would act like a direction flasher and would pull away from the main contact. The result being a very dead electrical system. I did buy a new ignition switch from one of the usual suppliers and it was a big expensive mistake. It was a brand new piece of junk and it only worked for about 4 to 6,000 km. I pitched to piece of junk and made new contact blades and it has worked perfectly since. The problem was gone. I did write for Gerald Roush a procedure on this issue and I don't recall if did ever publish it, even made a couple diagrams. That was a very long time ago.

Yves

[tyang]

I Think a relay would work well for this application, and I think I remember an owner did this modification to his 330. I may see him next week at the Radcliffe Event, and I'll ask.

Tom

[330GT]

One of the changes between the 330 GT series 1/interim wiring (12 fuse panel) and the series 2 (16 fuse panel) is the addition of an ignition relay. So the ignition switch contacts do not carry a lot of current, just enough to energize the relay.

[250GT]

KC and TY, I started this thread because I was suprised it happened again
I wrote:"Everything has earth wiring. And high torque starter with relais in between."
Relais is France and German and Dutch and stands for RELAY.
All heavy component like additional Electr fan, Starter, Marchal horn are secured by a supplement" Marchalrelay"( not original)
the highstarter needs in contra to the old Marelli 21MT hadly juice its fires up in a few sec.
So I put it in now the DRAWER of parts that wear, like tires and exhausts.
thanks for the inputs.

C.

[kare]

I have trouble remembering how the ignition switch is connected, but I think the toasted blade is the main feed (battery plus), which connects over to two other blades when key is turned 2x90 degrees and finally to starter circuit on the back when the key is pushed. The blade gets burned as there is too much current going through the iginition switch in general. When brass (like any copper based metal) heats up, the grain size starts to grow and the material softens up. When contact gets worse, the resistance increases, more heat is generated and the process escalates. It can even work as a thermocoupling if the blades cools off on the backside.

My remedy would be connecting the electric switch through relays for each circuit but if you have already done that, it beats me. My guess anyway is that starter current is not the problem, it is the high and long lasting electric consumption during driving which toasts the switch and this is why it is the other circuits that need to be rerouted.

[kare]

And - heh - that relay is a "Mixo", not a "Marchal". I think I've seen those in Citroëns.

[Yale]

Could these switches be remade with, maybe, a different more robust metal instead of brass. Could be a nice business for a retired dentist perhaps?

[250GT]

I have trouble remembering how the ignition switch is connected, but I think the toasted blade is the main feed (battery plus), which connects over to two other blades when key is turned 2x90 degrees and finally to starter circuit on the back when the key is pushed. The blade gets burned as there is too much current going through the iginition switch in general. When brass (like any copper based metal) heats up, the grain size starts to grow and the material softens up. When contact gets worse, the resistance increases, more heat is generated and the process escalates. It can even work as a thermocoupling if the blades cools off on the backside.

My remedy would be connecting the electric switch through relays for each circuit but if you have already done that, it beats me. My guess anyway is that starter current is not the problem, it is the high and long lasting electric consumption during driving which toasts the switch and this is why it is the other circuits that need to be rerouted.

Kare,
You hit the nail on his head everything above is correct.
The originalwiring of 250GT used only ONE Relay as far I know in combination with the two compressors below.
On the relay is written Marchal-Vaucanson and the year of production in my case 1952 and 1953( below 2 pics9
the have a metalcover with the two letters as logo on top- m and w- placed over each other.

C.

[250GT]

Could these switches be remade with, maybe, a different more robust metal instead of brass. Could be a nice business for a retired dentist perhaps?

Yes Yale,
I probebly can, but you have to wait a little bit more than a decade.

C.

[250GT]

And - heh - that relay is a "Mixo", not a "Marchal". I think I've seen those in Citroëns.

I owe you an answer Kare,
Yes you are right again Its Mixo not Marchal, how could I over see.....
I use these because they have this nice vintage 50th look.
Even RR and Bugatti use them.
Mine came out an Facel Vega HK 500 Better known as" the France bordel on wheels"

Here as always some pics.

C.

[Yale]

Could these switches be remade with, maybe, a different more robust metal instead of brass. Could be a nice business for a retired dentist perhaps?

Yes Yale,
I probebly can, but you have to wait a little bit more than a decade.

C.

Then perhaps a dentist with a little side business. Come on C, I know with all the parts you have laying around that you know the next step is Cornelius parts improvement company and the step after that is your own little factory making better versions of all the parts you so lovingly share photos of with us.

[Timo]

Then perhaps a dentist with a little side business. Come on C, I know with all the parts you have laying around that you know the next step is Cornelius parts improvement company and the step after that is your own little factory making better versions of all the parts you so lovingly share photos of with us.

... and then have that factory/business venture go bust due to too many car owners not willing to buy them because they're are not "just like originals" or that they're too expensive(???).

[kare]

Visited an older Fiat enthusiasts today, among life in general we talked about ignition switches. He was well aware that some load must must be taken off from the ignition switch if you want the blades to last.